Husband and Wife Writing Duo Jason Feifer and Jennifer Miller Discuss Their Funny Yet Romantic Book, “Mr. Nice Guy”

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The novel: Mr. Nice Guy

Purchase Here: https://www.amazon.com/Mr-Nice-Guy-Jennifer-Miller/dp/1250189888


In Brief: Each week, two writers named Lucas and Carmen are tasked with a excruciatingly public, often humiliating task: They must sleep together, and then critically review each other’s sexual performance in a magazine. This is about what happens when people are honest about the thing nobody’s ever totally honest about. The novel is written by two people who, as it so happens, have also slept together—married couple Jason Feifer (editor in chief, Entrepreneur magazine) and Jennifer Miller (novelist, The Year of the Gadfly). Which is to say, yes, a writer couple wrote about a writer couple with a very… complicated relationship.

Details about us / working together:
For Entrepreneur, Jason commissioned a survey of 1,007 people from SurveyMonkey Audience, asking them if they’ve worked with close friends, family, or spouses. 87% said yes, and 78% said it was a good experience. They also identified some of the most important ways to make it work, including: having distinct roles and responsibilities, allowing for constructive criticism, and setting aside nonword time to spend together. Good data to talk about for the show! Jen and I met on OKCupid. She said yes to a date because I used a semicolon correctly in my first message to her. (That would feature prominently later: The New York Times wrote about our wedding, and its lede was “It all began with a semicolon.”)
We’ve always been comfortable working together. One of our first big challenges while dating was when Jen asked me to edit her first novel. Definitely a make-or-break moment for an early relationship. (I said yes; we survived, and it was published.)
The idea for Mr. Nice Guy started with me in my 20s. A sex columnist had reached out to me asking for writing advice, and we started up a correspondence. That sparked the idea: What would happen if two people had to regularly have sex and then review each other?
I tried to write the novel for years, but failed each time. I’m a non-fiction guy. I just didn’t know how to do fiction. But then I married a novelist. After Jen sold her most recent novel a few years ago, she asked me what I thought her next project should be. “You should write my novel, because I’m never going to do it,” I said. “We should do it together,” she said. And so, it began.
It took us three years to write—plotting over dinner, during vacations, writing on nights and weekends and early mornings. We split up the actual writing: Jen wrote the majority of the story, I wrote the columns and some selected scenes, and then we edited each other’s work.
The book-marketing and selling process always turns Jen into an anxious wreck. She says the only reason she’s holding it together this time is because she wrote it with me.
Watch the podcast here!
 

Podcast Notes

1YouTube generated podcast notes, please excuse any typos.
hi everyone and welcome to the
0:02
inventor's launchpad Network I am call
0:05
mine Dennis Koh your host for today's
0:07
show and we got a special episode today
0:09
we have two people out here husband and
0:12
wife they have a book that's going out
0:14
it's gonna be coming out in October
0:15
they've been working on it for a few
0:17
years they're both business owners they
0:18
both found time to develop this book and
0:21
we're gonna talk to him a little bit
0:22
about how they split the time how they
0:24
got it together we have Jason Pfeiffer
0:26
and Jennifer Miller you guys on we are
0:29
thanks for having us
0:30
hey guys what's happening how's it going
0:32
out there I know that we want to talk a
0:34
little bit about your book but before
0:37
that I want to just talk a little bit
0:38
about what you guys do I know Jason
0:39
fight for all you listeners he's been on
0:42
the show before he's the other in chief
0:43
Entrepreneur Magazine and Jennifer I
0:46
know that you've written books before is
0:48
that correct yeah this is my fourth
0:51
fourth book I think a third novel so
0:54
yeah I've been I've been a journalist
0:56
and an author for a long time now I've
0:59
got a couple of novels in one nonfiction
1:02
book and and I I'm a freelance
1:05
journalist I write for the New York
1:06
Times The Washington Post Bloomberg
1:08
Businessweek sometimes entrepreneur
1:11
[Laughter]
1:14
that's what I do but you know you you
1:17
throw that out there like oh yeah a
1:19
couple novels you know we did you know
1:22
some fiction books I mean that's some
1:23
serious stuff I mean writing to me it's
1:26
it's like and to a lot of people it's
1:28
one of those things that people they go
1:30
blank when they say hey you got to write
1:31
something or even thinking about putting
1:33
a book together and you talk about it
1:36
like it's just an everyday thing is it
1:38
something that you've always liked to do
1:40
I mean I've always wanted to be a writer
1:43
I have no other skills Corner corner
1:50
corner for that one but you know it's
1:53
it's great it's some especially writing
1:56
fiction it's it's all about inventing I
1:59
mean you have to I mean I've never
2:01
actually like invented a product but but
2:04
I have invented a world you know you're
2:06
doing bet characters you have to invent
2:08
worlds and it's just
2:11
it's fun it can be a struggle but you're
2:14
just kind of drawing on a well of
2:16
creativity and it's the best job you
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know I I it's funny I hadn't really
2:21
thought about the connection until you
2:22
until you just said it but what I think
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the most important things in writing
2:26
fiction is thinking like thinking
2:29
logically through how if you introduce
2:31
something into a world you have to think
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through all of the repercussions of that
2:34
and how people would naturally react to
2:36
that and that's very much like inventing
2:39
a product you have to think through how
2:41
are people going to react to it how are
2:42
they going to use it how might they talk
2:44
about it like everything that you do
2:46
creates some kind of ripple effect that
2:48
you have to really consider yeah there's
2:51
no doubt and and it's got to flow
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through and you have to remember all
2:53
those things that happen that's what I
2:55
was thinking Jason
2:56
Jennifer you were kind of downplaying it
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but it it's super important I mean I I
3:01
think it's big it's actually if I
3:04
invented an ashtray it's just an ashtray
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you know
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people 20 years from now we're gonna say
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it's an ass right but writing a book and
3:11
keeping that character and keeping those
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slow it's a tough invention right Jason
3:15
it's pretty it's pretty big oh yeah it's
3:17
super tough you know one of one of Jen's
3:19
previous novels jumped around in time a
3:22
lot and also changed perspective and uh
3:26
she had she had you remember this you
3:28
had like a whiteboard where you had
3:30
mapped everything out and I think there
3:32
also might have been like index cards
3:35
with things on it that you were moving
3:36
around like it's really hard to keep all
3:38
of that together and and have it you
3:41
know I mean you're basically you have a
3:42
million little pieces not not unlike
3:45
pulling a company together you have a
3:47
million little pieces and they all have
3:48
to sing and harmony harmony and if one
3:50
doesn't work the entire thing seems
3:52
incoherent hmm I agree and keep the
3:55
readers interested which is as we all
3:57
know is pretty tough right I mean you
4:04
know my goal in writing fiction and
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certainly our goal in writing mr. nice
4:08
guy the book that we wrote together is
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really to forge a connection with our
4:13
audience and to keep them invested and
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to you know make them want to keep
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turning the pages like we wanted to
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write a page-turner
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and and so you know we worked really
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hard to have that flow to have that flow
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going yeah you know it's I mean this is
4:30
great writing advice for really anybody
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of any kind whether you're writing
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fiction or not is you have to make sure
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like you have to think of economy of
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language literally everything that you
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put in the book down to the word has to
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incentivize somebody to keep moving
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forward like if if there's fat in there
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people will lose interest and people got
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too many other things to do than to sit
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and read a book or read anything read a
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piece of content that they're not
4:52
interested in so everything in there has
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to serve a purpose and if it doesn't you
4:57
have to take it out and and Jen and I
4:59
have we've keep we've killed a lot of
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darlings in this book and Jen has done
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quite a lot of killing darlings and
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prior books - yeah I mean it's funny
5:08
like just thinking about the connection
5:09
between writing a book and starting a
5:12
business you know you hear a lot about
5:14
you not being afraid to fail you know
5:17
businesses having to having a pivot and
5:20
you have to do the exact same thing when
5:23
you're writing fiction I mean I have I
5:25
have literally I've written you know
5:28
hundreds of pages that I've had to throw
5:31
out whole plot lines whole characters
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and then create new plot lines and new
5:37
characters but I think you know as any
5:40
entrepreneur knows when you then hit
5:42
upon the thing that's really right and
5:44
really working it's so exciting and and
5:47
the fact that you had to go down that
5:48
other road it was necessary to get to
5:51
where you are you know successfully
5:54
totally don't you know I I just I was
5:56
telling Jen last night about this very
5:58
frustrating conversation I had with a
5:59
guy yesterday who has a very interesting
6:02
tech business I will not discuss it here
6:04
because I wanna but it was super
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interesting and I think that he is just
6:08
chasing the entirely wrong market like
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he's just his product market fit is not
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there and I spent an hour an hour
6:14
arguing with him on the phone trying to
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get him to focus on something else
6:17
because I just thought he was like he
6:18
was just going down the wrong road he a
6:19
really interesting thing but it wasn't
6:21
it wasn't reaching the right audience
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and it was just the application wasn't
6:25
right and and you can't force something
6:27
like that you know Jen what Jen's Jen's
6:30
novel of the year the gadfly the first
6:32
couple drafts either did not
6:35
tane or contained in a very small way
6:37
what ultimately became like basically
6:39
the main character of the story she had
6:41
to rewrite it so many times that a
6:43
character that once didn't exist and
6:45
then was a small character turned out to
6:47
be the main character and that's when
6:49
the book worked and it was really scary
6:54
you know getting feedback that that the
6:57
first couple drafts were weren't working
6:59
definitely there was a freakout no you
7:08
have that drive and you and you know
7:12
that you know you're not gonna give up
7:13
and you're gonna you're gonna come up
7:15
with a creative solution and you're
7:16
gonna make it work and so that's what I
7:18
did I made it work and it was hard but
7:21
but I made it work and it paid off
7:23
yeah and it's better to do that than to
7:25
put out something that doesn't work yes
7:27
I totally agree with that there's no
7:29
doubt I mean if you know in your heart
7:30
you're saying I'm just gonna get this
7:31
out there it's done it's not ready
7:33
there's no doubt right yeah so but I
7:37
could tell and Jennifer when she's
7:38
talking about the book I mean she
7:40
generally you love what you do there's
7:42
no doubt about it you love it just so
7:44
happy to talk about it which is what
7:46
needs to be done and it's obviously
7:47
you're doing what you love to do and it
7:49
obviously comes out in your books do you
7:51
have a specific following is there a
7:54
specific type of personality that
7:56
follows your books
7:57
man but you know I have to say my books
8:00
have all been so different that I think
8:03
that they have really appealed to two
8:05
different audiences the first novel was
8:09
a mystery set at a prep school the
8:11
second novel was about a pack of Vietnam
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veteran motorcycle motorcyclists
8:18
traveling across the country and now mr.
8:21
nice guy is about to two journalists who
8:25
sleep together every week and then
8:27
review each other sexual performance in
8:29
a magazine columns so so I don't know I
8:34
mean maybe there's some crossover
8:35
between you know motorcycle riding
8:37
Vietnam vets and you know people being
8:41
brutally honest in the pages of national
8:43
magazines about their sex lives I'm not
8:45
sure
8:45
[Laughter]
8:49
it seems like she's an inventor like
8:50
she'll wake up with an idea but she
8:52
turns it into a book and inventors wake
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up with an idea and they write the idea
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down it's kind of the it's kind of the
8:57
same type of thing right oh yeah
8:59
absolutely and it takes you know and it
9:01
takes a long time you can't rush it
9:03
I mean these these projects take years
9:05
years and years and years and they and
9:07
they they change and there is you know
9:09
the Jenna speaks enthusiastically now
9:11
but there is a lot of heartache that
9:13
goes goes into it as well and anxiety
9:16
and and that's all part of the process
9:19
right I mean you know I was recently
9:20
talking just to I mean not to name drop
9:22
but he just made such a great point I
9:24
was recently talking to Malcolm Gladwell
9:25
and he we were talking about about how
9:29
long some things some things take and he
9:32
said that as he's gotten older he
9:33
realized that you need to give a problem
9:36
the respect it deserves which I really
9:39
loved like you know which is to say that
9:41
like sometimes a problem cannot be
9:42
solved in a day a month a year five
9:45
years and that is a you need to the only
9:49
way to solve that problem is to is to is
9:51
to approach it and give it the respect
9:52
it deserves it's a challenging project
9:54
and it's going to take challenging
9:56
problem and it's gonna take years and
9:57
and that's that's the truth for
10:00
certainly an invention like you just
10:02
don't pull something out of you're out
10:04
of the air and then yeah and then in the
10:06
crate and that also I mean Jen her first
10:08
novel took seven years do I have that
10:11
right remember seven years yeah seven
10:13
years I mean that is that's a major
10:15
child but you know what that's when
10:16
you're right when you're doing something
10:17
that complex and for the first time it's
10:19
gonna take that long and you just have
10:21
to be okay with that
10:22
and now now we've got it down to three
10:25
years is how long mister guy a nice guy
10:27
took so that's you know that's
10:28
improvement but uh but you know you
10:30
don't just crank this stuff out but you
10:32
definitely I mean you know so I think
10:36
you know mr. nice guy it's only got two
10:39
narrators in it and it doesn't split
10:41
back and forth in time you know in the
10:42
way that my first book did so you know
10:45
it was a more streamlined more
10:47
streamlined project but but certainly
10:49
you know I had by the time they got to
10:51
book number three much better sense of
10:54
how a plot needs to be constructed of
10:57
how kind of ones
10:59
into the next how to build a climax but
11:03
even so you know we we had written Jason
11:06
I had written had written one draft and
11:08
the feedback that we got was that one of
11:10
the main characters she kind of she
11:14
faded out too much she she didn't she
11:18
wasn't she didn't have enough of a voice
11:20
in the final final third of the book and
11:23
so we sat down we figured out okay well
11:26
we need to throw out the last hundred
11:27
pages and we need to rethink them and we
11:30
need to figure out how to give this
11:32
character more agency how to give her
11:34
more of a role an active role in the
11:36
story she was too passive and so we
11:39
rewrote the the last third of the book
11:42
to really you know bring her out and and
11:45
in the end it turned out to be great
11:46
because you know she does some really
11:48
really exciting slightly scandalous
11:51
things and and I you know it makes / it
11:57
makes for a better story yeah yeah that
11:59
I want to get into talking about the
12:01
book and and how the idea came around
12:03
but real quick how does it feel when you
12:06
finish one of these books I mean is it
12:08
ever the feeling where you you put that
12:10
paper on the thing and yo it's done is
12:12
there ever a feeling for the actual
12:14
authors so I have to tell you I I much
12:19
prefer to be in the middle of the
12:21
project and to be at the end of it much
12:23
prefer because because as long as I'm in
12:26
the middle of the project I don't have
12:28
to worry about trying to sell it I don't
12:31
have to worry what anybody else is gonna
12:32
think all I'm concerned with is creating
12:34
and that's what I really love I love I
12:37
love the creating I love the writing
12:39
once it's done I'm that much closer to
12:41
having to convince other people to like
12:44
it and to want to buy it and to want to
12:46
market it and I hate that and and
12:49
actually that's why part of the reason
12:51
it was so wonderful to have Jason as a
12:53
partner with with this project because
12:57
he's now shoulder shouldering a lot of
13:00
the burden of having to do that kind of
13:03
takes the pressure off of me to be able
13:04
to share it with the partner yeah yeah
13:07
you know and it's funny because we
13:08
didn't or at least I didn't think about
13:10
that part of the
13:12
partnership when we were writing the
13:14
book I don't know if I don't know if you
13:16
did it didn't occur to me that we would
13:18
we would reach the end and then we get
13:20
into the marketing phase and that a lot
13:22
of that would shift onto me and that I
13:23
would be really enthusiastic about it I
13:25
didn't I didn't think but that actually
13:26
turned out to be what it was like Jen
13:28
has always hated that stuff I mean hated
13:31
it to the point where like when after a
13:33
book of hers comes out I have asked her
13:34
like do you want to keep doing this
13:36
like maybe you should stop writing books
13:38
she loves writing books but then you get
13:40
to the part where you actually have to
13:40
sell it and it's it's torturous sorry
13:43
because putting some putting putting
13:46
something out into the world and then
13:47
having to like market it yourself and be
13:48
constantly Hawking it it's it's hard
13:50
hard stuff and I think a lot of people
13:53
are exactly like Jen where they would
13:54
they they really love the creation
13:56
process but the marketing feels so out
13:59
of so out of their hands so out of
14:01
control and that it becomes really
14:03
frustrating and so frustrating to have
14:05
worked on something for so long and know
14:07
that it's so good and then not
14:10
understand how to get it in front of
14:12
people it's like you just step away and
14:20
let their publishers handle it and the
14:22
publishers you know do more or less
14:25
depending I have always really leaned
14:28
into it and tried to be really
14:29
entrepreneurial and really creative it's
14:32
exhausting it's exhausting to do that
14:35
when there's so much at stake and that's
14:39
why it has just been so delightful god
14:41
bless you Jason for for taking or taking
14:45
I mean I'm just so I'm so happy that you
14:47
love doing it because I'm helping but
14:50
but I'm really letting him take the lead
14:52
because emotionally it's just too much
14:55
yeah that's awesome
14:57
know one of the things even up that I
14:58
learned for one of Jason's podcasts is
15:00
you need a team to have something
15:02
successful I mean so so yeah you do what
15:04
you love to do and you can help but
15:06
having that person that loves to do the
15:08
marketing less to sell like you said
15:10
there's so much pressure off you you get
15:11
to do what you love to do whether it was
15:13
Jason or someone else helping that's
15:16
what they do huh and it needs it you
15:18
need a team to do something successfully
15:21
yeah that's that's that's totally right
15:23
and you know we should be and it would
15:25
be we don't do
15:26
right now but I'd love to take people
15:28
through a little data that we have
15:29
because I did this survey for
15:31
entrepreneur rather I I partnered with
15:34
Survey Monkey to interview a thousand
15:36
and seven people I don't know why they
15:38
picked a thousand a thousand would have
15:39
been fine with me
15:40
about a thousand and seven people about
15:42
working together with close friends
15:45
family or spouses I was really
15:47
interested in how that worked for people
15:49
because we had gone through it and
15:50
people are always very curable if my
15:54
wife is and you're still married as two
15:57
people uh so um so it turns out actually
15:59
that this is it's quite common 78% of
16:03
the those people who were surveyed had
16:05
worked together with a close friend
16:06
family member or spouse and 87% of them
16:09
said that it was a good experience and
16:10
the number one reason the number one
16:14
strategy that they offered for making it
16:16
successful was establishing clear roles
16:18
and responsibilities like if and and I
16:21
think that like that is for so many
16:23
different reasons like one of them is so
16:24
that you're just not stepping on each
16:25
other's toes and you have like you
16:26
understand who has final say on what and
16:28
that's really important but also I think
16:30
it's because you want to make sure that
16:31
that there's a you have a partnership
16:33
where each side owns a part of it and
16:38
also is appreciative of the other side
16:39
owning a part of it right like I'm you
16:42
know I I am I am NOT a fiction writer
16:44
I'm not I'm a I'm a magazine editor and
16:47
a nonfiction writer I have I just don't
16:50
know how to do fiction so Jen does we
16:52
plotted this book out together but Jen
16:54
wrote the majority of it like the bulk
16:57
of that of that thing like the words
16:58
came out of her and so she really took
17:01
the lead on the writing of it and I've
17:03
taken the lead on the marketing of it
17:05
and and that is like that's a great
17:07
partnership and when you think of a book
17:08
you don't think of a partnership like
17:10
quite like that you don't think of the
17:11
marketing is really part of the book but
17:12
frankly it is because if you write a
17:14
book and you don't market it then nobody
17:16
read it and then why write it in the
17:17
first place it's important to do both I
17:19
agree that's what happened to my book I
17:21
think I sold three copies Jason you're a
17:29
hard percent right and that's what you
17:31
know intrigued me about your book is
17:33
that it sounds like and and as Jennifer
17:35
said it sounds like you guys had fun I
17:37
mean it was work I don't need her dinner
17:39
but you did
17:40
you you you you made sure you had clear
17:42
roles and you kind of made it fun it's a
17:44
fun you know subject matter obviously
17:46
yes yeah had fun doing it which is
17:49
really what you want to do but no we had
17:52
so much fun I mean you know I can't even
17:53
tell you how many how many car rides how
17:56
many dinners out we did a we did a long
17:59
road trip a couple years ago from South
18:03
Florida to New Orleans and and you know
18:07
that's a lot of hours in the car with
18:09
your husband and we spent a lot of that
18:13
time you know plotting out the book and
18:16
thinking through you know thinking
18:18
through like wouldn't it be cool if like
18:19
this happened and this person did this
18:21
and this person did that and let's throw
18:23
a remote control vibrator into this
18:25
scene and let's have a let's have a
18:27
person burst out of a cake and put money
18:30
around and this scene like just it's you
18:33
know it's great you actually never run
18:35
out of things to talk about when when
18:37
you've got a world to build so yeah you
18:40
know so let's talk a little bit about
18:42
the book obviously you came up with the
18:44
idea you didn't just start making you
18:46
know just developing the book right away
18:47
Jason and Jennifer there was there was
18:50
some time involved and just like an
18:51
invention coming up with the idea right
18:53
yeah yeah so and in fact just like an
18:56
invention manat like first of all the I
19:00
from idea to execution doesn't have to
19:02
happen immediately and sometimes I think
19:05
that you can have an idea the right idea
19:08
at the wrong time so this was this is
19:11
really a case of the right idea at the
19:12
wrong time this the idea for this book
19:15
mister and I feel like we should start
19:18
talking about the book without actually
19:19
saying what the book is No so I'll just
19:22
state it again so it's called mr. nice
19:23
guy it's about two people who each week
19:24
sleep together and then critically
19:25
review each other sexual performance in
19:27
a magazine and it is it is it started
19:30
with me in my 20s you know we're in our
19:33
late 30s now and I had I just started my
19:38
career as a journalist and freelance
19:41
writer and I had written a couple pieces
19:42
for for various magazines in there kind
19:46
of like sex and dating columns and a a
19:49
young sex columnist reached out to me
19:53
for
19:53
were freelance writing advice and I was
19:58
fun to trade emails back and forth and
20:00
we stayed in touch for maybe about a
20:01
year and it was over the course of
20:03
exchanging emails with her that I came
20:06
up with the premise for this I just
20:07
thought what would what would it what
20:08
would what would happen if two people
20:11
did this in a magazine like stuff
20:13
together and critically reviewed and it
20:14
was almost like a thought experiment and
20:16
I kicked it around and I told friends
20:17
and I tried to write it a couple times
20:19
and like and then you know flash forward
20:21
like like eight years or whatever I met
20:23
I met Jen and I told her about this
20:25
premise in one of our first dates and
20:27
she encouraged me to write in and I just
20:29
I just couldn't I just I tried I didn't
20:31
know where to go with it and so what it
20:33
really took was and this is like this is
20:36
where you get to write idea right time
20:38
what it really took was one marrying
20:41
someone who actually knows how to write
20:42
novels really really valuable hack write
20:45
that and and then and then two after Jen
20:49
sold her most recent novel she was
20:51
looking for a new project and I said you
20:52
know what write my idea because I'm not
20:55
gonna do it but we both agree that it
20:57
should be done and she said no we should
20:59
do it together and then we had it week
21:01
then the idea was born right and so it
21:04
was like sometimes and this has happened
21:07
to me many other times before like even
21:09
even with even with articles for
21:10
magazines where I had an idea for
21:12
something and I didn't actually execute
21:15
it for ten years eight years whatever it
21:18
was and I'm so glad that I waited that
21:20
time because I did it when it was right
21:23
right like there was I did this one
21:25
story about this homeless baseball team
21:28
a team with no home that the players are
21:31
at home was the team's home and I I
21:33
thought of that idea when I was maybe 25
21:35
28 and and I and I executed it when I
21:37
was 35 and I was such a better writer by
21:41
the time I was 35 that I was really able
21:43
to do justice to this idea that I don't
21:45
think I would have been able to pull off
21:46
if I had tried it at 25 and I think the
21:48
same thing can be true for in inventors
21:50
of all kinds where you know you may have
21:53
an idea but you don't have the technical
21:55
know-how or you may have an idea you
21:56
don't have the right partners or
21:58
whatever hold on to it don't abandon it
22:00
don't say well I can't do it now so I'll
22:01
never be able to do it just keep it in
22:03
your back pocket and look for that right
22:05
opportunity and at some point you may
22:07
finally have right idea right time and
22:10
you'll have yourself a hit that's
22:12
happened with me with my books I mean
22:13
was the motorcycle Vietnam vets I had
22:16
written a story about real-world
22:18
motorcycle Vietnam vets for the New York
22:20
Times I think back in 2005 and I'd
22:24
actually tried to turn it into a
22:26
nonfiction book and wasn't able to sell
22:29
it and so you know was disappointed but
22:31
I put it in a drawer and then literally
22:33
a decade later when I was looking for a
22:37
new project I thought you know I've done
22:39
so much work on this already and now I'm
22:42
a fiction writer maybe I should try it
22:44
as fiction maybe I should put it in a
22:46
new medium and so I pulled out all of my
22:50
old research and notes and I end up
22:51
writing this novel and was able to sell
22:53
it and it was wonderful
22:55
and you know that novel is called the
22:59
heart you carry home I wish that that
23:03
the 25 year old me would have had some
23:07
advice from the 35 year old me you know
23:09
to know hey you're not abandoning this
23:12
it's just not the right time the right
23:15
time will come I wish I know that's huge
23:18
advice I mean you had a book sitting in
23:22
your draw like you said and you
23:23
repurpose it it's so important for
23:25
people to realize that there's no bad
23:27
ideas it's just execution time right I
23:30
mean just knowing and having a team this
23:33
didn't no doubt having the right team by
23:36
the time you know 10 years later I mean
23:39
I had I had that team in this case I had
23:42
I had a great agent I had a great editor
23:44
who you know people who were really able
23:46
to see my vision that when I tried it
23:50
the first time I didn't really have that
23:51
and so you know it was I think the
23:53
confluence of like Jason said being
23:56
older being a better writer but also
23:58
having that support network that I had
24:01:00
been able to build helped to bring that
24:03:00
book to fruition yeah yeah I think a lot
24:06:00
of people are as you guys both pointed
24:08:00
out they're kind of fearful of what
24:10:00
their peers what the public is going to
24:13:00
think about their written word or their
24:15:00
ideas and it holds a lot of people back
24:17:00
whereas you guys have your each other
24:19:00
but you have your
24:21:00
people you have your teams and you've
24:23:00
done it before so it's just breaking out
24:25:00
into that world and you know trusting I
24:27:00
mean both of you guys having articles in
24:29:00
magazines intelligent and newspapers it
24:32:00
it just means so cool to be able to say
24:34:00
that's my article I just love it that
24:37:00
you guys can do that stuff yeah it's
24:40:00
really it's very very satisfying I gotta
24:42:00
say although you know it's funny even
24:43:00
even you know a speaking of like you
24:48:00
know getting feedback or dealing with
24:50:00
the public's reaction so on past novels
24:53:00
yeah I have been the filter for reviews
24:56:00
for Jen so so I will set a Google Alert
24:59:00
for her books and then I will see
25:02:00
everything that comes in and then I will
25:04:00
pass along the stuff that will not give
25:06:00
her too much anxiety I think we're gonna
25:11:00
be working on the under the same premise
25:13:00
for mr. nice-guy we have we've had one
25:17:00
review come in so far from Kirkus which
25:19:00
is a trade publication it was a great
25:21:00
review big relief but I think you know
25:25:00
from from here on out I think Jason
25:27:00
Jason's going to be that filter I mean
25:30:00
I'm really curious to see kind of what
25:32:00
the public reaction to to this is
25:35:00
because we're dealing with stuff that is
25:38:00
like kind of culturally controversial I
25:40:00
mean people don't talk about sex that
25:43:00
openly and the very project right of
25:47:00
like you know revealing like your most
25:50:00
intimate moments in you know in national
25:53:00
publications I don't know I really
25:57:00
curious to see what the reaction yeah
26:00:00
yeah you're like oh my and your
26:01:00
listeners should know that we're so
26:02:00
we're speaking in in August very early
26:06:00
August and so this is this this show is
26:08:00
is launching in October so I guess by
26:10:00
the time people are listening to this
26:11:00
quite a lot will have happened you're
26:13:00
catching us at a at an interesting
26:14:00
moment where you know we've we've lined
26:16:00
up with marketing we can that we don't
26:19:00
really know who's gonna write about us
26:21:00
yet we don't know what's gonna happen
26:22:00
the very first things that happened when
26:24:00
you release a book is that is that these
26:25:00
two trade publications review it which
26:28:00
is Kirkus which we got and then
26:29:00
Publishers Weekly which we haven't heard
26:31:00
yet so those are the first like
26:32:00
indications of how people are going to
26:33:00
react to
26:34:00
and then then the rest will come over
26:36:00
time so we're really just in a
26:38:00
wait-and-see mode what a nerd what a
26:40:00
nerve-racking time period ah I'm with
26:43:00
Jennifer you're just like waiting for
26:44:00
okay what are they gonna say but it is
26:47:00
not only is it it seems like it's a
26:50:00
taboo subject I don't understand why I
26:52:00
think it's a fun subject people more
26:54:00
open should be more open about talking
26:55:00
about it I think it's a great idea to
26:57:00
write about it because it brings it out
26:58:00
to public and you're making it kind of
27:00:00
fun in a way yeah I'm a we hope I mean
27:04:00
you know I think that I think that I I
27:07:00
mean I'm just a big both of us are big
27:10:00
believers in in just a better better
27:12:00
communication and from everything from
27:14:00
everyone right everything should be
27:16:00
talked about and that and that people
27:18:00
are people are hurt when you aren't able
27:21:00
to talk about important things and to to
27:24:00
somebody or whatever degree this book
27:26:00
can be a conversation starter for people
27:29:00
I think will have really provided some
27:31:00
value to people's lives that's how I
27:33:00
look at it too it's a fun you know again
27:35:00
a fun book to write but again it could
27:37:00
end up helping people also to be better
27:39:00
communicative to talk about things to be
27:41:00
more open so in the long run I think
27:43:00
it's a it's a great overall type project
27:46:00
for you guys thank you thank you yeah we
27:49:00
we certainly hope so
27:51:00
we'll see between now and when people
27:53:00
listen to this show we'll learn a lot
27:55:00
about what people think about that you
28:03:00
know Jason was talking a little bit
28:04:00
about I guess your first date are prior
28:07:00
to your first date he talked about using
28:10:00
he was a writer and one of the reasons
28:13:00
you went out with them is because he
28:14:00
used the semicolon in the correct place
28:16:00
is that correct yes I am a huge dork
28:19:00
[Laughter]
28:21:00
anybody well so so I should I should say
28:25:00
that Jason and I were using we're online
28:27:00
dating this was before tinder before
28:31:00
bumble like there wasn't that kind of
28:33:00
swipe that those swiping sites didn't
28:35:00
exist and so and so everything was
28:38:00
really based more around these long-form
28:41:00
profiles people are like really crafting
28:45:00
their profiles or
28:46:00
you know you'd get these profiles from
28:48:00
guys who they were just like full of
28:51:00
typos and like you know didn't you know
28:54:00
didn't use posture fees correctly and
28:57:00
you know would use like just stupid
28:59:00
slang like sup and you know I just and
29:04:00
so you know very quickly you learn you
29:06:00
know being being a nerd like myself you
29:09:00
filter out a lot of that stuff but then
29:11:00
of course you know there is like you
29:13:00
know decent writing but then there's
29:14:00
like the gold standard where you pull
29:17:00
out you pull out a rather complicated
29:21:00
grammatical punctuation mark like a
29:23:00
semicolon and and use it correctly it's
29:27:00
like oh my god the music's play who's
29:35:00
this grammatical Knight what I like this
29:40:00
I like being called a grammatical Knight
29:43:00
what Jennifer that that's what's great
29:45:00
about it those things were important to
29:47:00
you you I don't think you're a nerd
29:48:00
about it
29:49:00
but there's things that are important to
29:51:00
you that those that that stuck that it
29:54:00
was important so I think it's pretty
29:55:00
cool that those little things you know
29:58:00
brought you to Jason because of his
30:00:00
writing abilities that was definitely
30:08:00
the first the first indication that you
30:12:00
know that at least we have the potential
30:14:00
to hit it off ya know that but it is
30:17:00
important I mean we see it and I know it
30:19:00
probably drives Jason crazy you see it
30:21:00
all the time I mean if people don't
30:22:00
reread what they're sending or what
30:25:00
they're talking about I mean it's just
30:26:00
you gotta spend a little bit of time oh
30:29:00
my god can I it's so funny thing I just
30:32:00
did a I don't know it's got a web but no
30:35:00
I did it whatever I was I I spoke to a
30:37:00
group of young entrepreneurs by web and
30:40:00
they were like 40 of them that tuned in
30:42:00
and we talked a lot about writing and
30:44:00
the importance of writing and I really
30:45:00
stress to them something that I'd
30:47:00
mentioned earlier in in our show here
30:50:00
that you have to think about economy of
30:52:00
language everything that you put into
30:54:00
any piece of writing has to has to be
30:57:00
justified has to have a purpose you have
30:58:00
to really think hard about
31:00:00
and afterwards one of the one of the
31:03:00
kids who had tuned in sent me Jennifer
31:06:00
got to show you this sent me a blog post
31:09:00
that he wrote and he's got some blog
31:11:00
about my talk it was he basically just
31:14:00
gonna recap the things that I said it
31:15:00
was in including quite a lot of
31:17:00
stressing about the importance of
31:19:00
writing and in this piece he misspelled
31:23:00
my name three different ways like but my
31:27:00
it was like is my name it's like
31:29:00
Pfeiffer his Fei fer there was like fi
31:31:00
fer feef you're like he just it just
31:33:00
kept changing right it was like dude you
31:37:00
like you said you've repeated the thing
31:39:00
that I said but you didn't integrate it
31:41:00
into how you're writing and and I'll
31:43:00
tell you like that stuff it's it's so
31:46:00
the simplest thing in the world is to
31:48:00
spell somebody's name correctly it's the
31:50:00
simplest thing in the world all it takes
31:52:00
is is like is just looking for for
31:55:00
another half a second at it and for some
31:58:00
reason people screw that up all the time
32:00:00
and they make basic basic writing errors
32:03:00
they email me they send me pitches and
32:05:00
they address I get at least one a day a
32:08:00
pitch addressed to somebody named Jeff I
32:10:00
don't know Jeff is he doesn't work here
32:12:00
right and I just get that all the time
32:14:00
and it's just it's so basic everybody
32:17:00
needs to stop and reread before hitting
32:21:00
said stop and reread everything it's
32:23:00
just it's so important I can't stress
32:25:00
how important it is you you look like a
32:26:00
fool if you have not reread your
32:28:00
anything that you write yeah 100 percent
32:31:00
write down if I mean if you're trying to
32:33:00
introduce yourself or looking for
32:35:00
someone's help and you can't spend an
32:38:00
extra couple of minutes to reread it's
32:40:00
it's gonna be a little bit tough well
32:42:00
it's really it's really important I mean
32:43:00
it's it is a kind of first impression
32:45:00
right and so you know certainly in the
32:48:00
literary world I mean when you're trying
32:50:00
to find an agent when you're trying to
32:52:00
make connections you got you know you
32:54:00
the what you write needs to be hero
32:57:00
written it needs to be thought out it
32:59:00
needs to be your copy needs to be clean
33:01:00
same thing when you're pitching an
33:02:00
editor and if you're pitching if you're
33:04:00
pitching is you know a magazine or
33:06:00
cult to an editor and it's full of
33:08:00
errors and mistakes that editors not
33:10:00
going to take you seriously it's just
33:12:00
kind of basic professionalism but it
33:14:00
really is like when you're writing it's
33:16:00
a kind of first impression that's really
33:17:00
important so pay attention to yeah I
33:20:00
agree
33:21:00
for your for the book mr. nice guy was
33:23:00
it was a tough to find an editor or
33:26:00
someone who produced a book or send that
33:28:00
out or do you already have someone in
33:29:00
mind so what we first had to find an
33:32:00
agent that was the first hurdle we each
33:36:00
actually have our own agents but we
33:39:00
needed to find the right kind of agent
33:41:00
for this kind of book so so just to set
33:45:00
up like this is how the industry works
33:46:00
so this is this is every book that's
33:48:00
sold to in a traditional publishing
33:49:00
platform goes this way so like the first
33:52:00
step is agent sorry no and you need to
33:56:00
find the right it's just like you know
33:57:00
when you're I guess like when you're
33:59:00
looking for an investor for example like
34:01:00
some investors like the product if
34:03:00
company is right for them and and some
34:05:00
it's not and so you want to find the
34:07:00
agent who is familiar and really
34:10:00
passionate about the type of book you're
34:13:00
writing so my previous books they were
34:14:00
more literary fiction this ones were
34:16:00
commercial it's you know it's a rom-com
34:18:00
it's a satire it's you know fast fast
34:21:00
paced and comedy and so we needed the
34:26:00
right kind of agent so it definitely
34:27:00
took us a little while to pinpoint that
34:30:00
age and then once we did that then the
34:33:00
agents basically it's their job to find
34:37:00
the right publisher and it's the same
34:39:00
it's the same thing so the agent needs
34:41:00
to kind of go through all of his or her
34:44:00
contacts and resources and know you know
34:47:00
how about the industry and figure out
34:49:00
who are the right editors to pitch this
34:51:00
book - and so our agent pitch that you
34:55:00
know pitch the book out to a bunch of
34:56:00
editors and then it's really
34:58:00
nerve-racking right you're waiting
35:01:00
sometimes for weeks to see you know
35:03:00
what's what's gonna happen and then of
35:05:00
course it's not just the editor who
35:07:00
needs to like the book but the editor
35:09:00
has to like it and then they have to
35:10:00
sell it to their whole team so we
35:14:00
definitely got so we got a number of
35:16:00
editors who passed we
35:17:00
a number of editors who really like the
35:19:00
book and weren't able to sell it to
35:21:00
their team and then fortunately her
35:25:00
couple of editors who really like the
35:28:00
book and were able to sell it to their
35:29:00
team and so then you know it was a
35:32:00
question of figuring out who would be
35:34:00
the right fit for for us and that's
35:37:00
that's what happened but I remember it
35:40:00
was last it was last year over fourth of
35:42:00
July actually Jason and I were in Maine
35:44:00
visiting my parents
35:45:00
when we were getting the rejections and
35:48:00
the maybes and the you know it was just
35:50:00
nailed we were fighting I was biting my
35:52:00
nails
35:53:00
Jason probably you know supremely
35:56:00
confident I was really confident yeah
35:59:00
yeah that's why we got introduced to the
36:01:00
phrase positive first read which is what
36:04:00
happens when the editor likes it but
36:06:00
hasn't yet sold it to their team it's a
36:08:00
positive first read the first read but
36:10:00
like you know then some of those
36:12:00
positive first reads trying to ultimate
36:13:00
rejections and yeah it was uh it was it
36:16:00
was it was wild we actually crazily sold
36:18:00
a foreign maybe even multiple foreign
36:21:00
right yeah couple foreign rights before
36:23:00
we before one of the American publisher
36:25:00
is actually purchased it we end up going
36:27:00
with st. Martin's Press which is you
36:28:00
know a great and huge and well-respected
36:31:00
press we were very excited yeah I mean
36:34:00
it seems like it seems like Jason's the
36:37:00
the patient one he seems very patient
36:40:00
like I'm patient the most impatient
36:43:00
patient person like I couldn't I'd be
36:45:00
going crazy right you know he's kind of
36:54:00
a perennial optimist
36:58:00
he's great mix I mean you guys have like
37:00:00
the perfect storm to you have any uh any
37:03:00
more ideas or books in mind or you're
37:06:00
like that's enough of this teaming up no
37:09:00
we do we we're actually working on
37:11:00
another book right now it's going to be
37:15:00
a long time coming but but yeah it's
37:18:00
about it's about two political pundits
37:20:00
who are kind of on opposite ends of the
37:22:00
spectrum who get romantically involved
37:27:00
okay can I just say about about my own
37:29:00
about my own
37:30:00
optimism how I get through through stuff
37:32:00
like that so a thing that I do it's not
37:34:00
just it's not just baked in optimism I
37:37:00
think I mean I think there is a lot of
37:38:00
that but like you know if you don't have
37:39:00
baked in optimism but you're still
37:41:00
trying to not be curled up on the couch
37:43:00
like Janis one here's the way here's the
37:47:00
way I think of it and this is this is
37:48:00
what I always try to tell her and then
37:49:00
um I don't know how much she's actually
37:52:00
able to follow it but I just say I just
37:54:00
say like um what we need is the
37:56:00
information like when we get the
37:58:00
information we can respond to the
38:00:00
information but until we have the
38:01:00
information there's no point worrying
38:03:00
about what we don't know so like you
38:07:00
know if there are if we had gone out to
38:08:00
I can't remember how many houses we
38:10:00
would publishing houses we went out but
38:11:00
let's to say we went out to ten we went
38:13:00
out to ten and we've heard from three
38:15:00
and there knows like there's no reason
38:18:00
to get worried we don't know what
38:19:00
happened with the other seven I don't
38:20:00
know I don't have the information so I'm
38:22:00
going to wait until I have the
38:24:00
information and then I'm going to deal
38:25:00
with the information right like just
38:26:00
because everything is just a problem to
38:28:00
be solved and if if if we've gotten
38:31:00
seven more knows well that would have
38:33:00
really sucked but then we would have
38:35:00
known and we would have figured out what
38:37:00
the next thing is we would have gone out
38:38:00
to another ten houses we would have
38:40:00
whatever we would have done we would
38:41:00
have had the information and been able
38:43:00
to react to it I think the major problem
38:45:00
is not having the information but having
38:48:00
the instinct to react anyway and the
38:50:00
only thing that you can do at that point
38:52:00
is is get anxious and curl up on a couch
38:54:00
which is not it's just it's not a
38:56:00
purposeful action no that's great well
39:05:00
the good part is is that you know you
39:07:00
guys both knew that you had something
39:09:00
good you had a good book you know you
39:10:00
had the idea it was written well so you
39:13:00
knew but it's still you know it's still
39:15:00
that unknown as Jason says but you knew
39:18:00
it was gonna happen I did yeah I knew I
39:25:00
mean I knew that we had I knew that we
39:27:00
had a great book I knew that you know
39:30:00
you know that it had enormous potential
39:33:00
it's really hard it's really hard not
39:36:00
having the information right that's
39:38:00
that's the thing when you're when you're
39:40:00
waiting for feedback especially when
39:43:00
you've invested
39:44:00
so much time and so much passion and so
39:47:00
much of yourself into something and you
39:50:00
believe it you really believe in it and
39:52:00
it's you know it's already been
39:53:00
rewritten many times you know I mean I
39:56:00
felt it felt really good about about the
39:58:00
product felt really good about it
40:00:00
and so it's just hard it's hard having
40:03:00
that that period of not yeah is there a
40:09:00
is there a certain chapter or part of
40:12:00
the book that you're really super proud
40:13:00
of that you like more not that you like
40:15:00
more but it's something that really
40:16:00
sticks out of your mind
40:18:00
yeah oh that's a good question Jen yeah
40:23:00
well I mentioned it I mentioned it
40:25:00
earlier I love the scene with the remote
40:28:00
control vibrator we basically so so one
40:32:00
of the things that we tried to do is you
40:35:00
know so we have these two people every
40:37:00
week they meet they have sexual
40:39:00
rendezvous and we tried to kind of throw
40:42:00
various challenges at them so so each
40:45:00
time that they are intimate they're
40:48:00
dealing with some kind of situation
40:51:00
either there's something like this
40:54:00
vibrator involved I think one time we
40:58:00
have we have a scene in which they're in
41:00:00
a hotel and suddenly this like just like
41:03:00
massive dessert cart rolls in and how to
41:08:00
integrate that into what's happening you
41:12:00
know we've got one chapter that's
41:13:00
basically all about kissing right so
41:15:00
they're they're kind of they're kind of
41:17:00
breaking that down and so that was
41:21:00
really fun to kind of you know invent
41:23:00
these various challenges and then to
41:25:00
figure out like as writers like how are
41:27:00
we going to have them respond in ways
41:30:00
that feel like real and truthful that
41:33:00
are also funny so yeah so that writing
41:37:00
writing those parts were really fun and
41:39:00
then also just you know some of my
41:42:00
favorite parts of the book so so Jason
41:44:00
and I you know we've been wheel it me
41:45:00
both we live in New York we've been in
41:47:00
New York media for a long time there's
41:49:00
some crazy stuff that happens I mean the
41:52:00
parties even even post recession the
41:54:00
parties that people
41:56:00
throw the personalities the ways in
41:59:00
which you know you you just meet a lot
42:02:00
of larger-than-life figures and the
42:06:00
wealth that's that you see thrown around
42:08:00
and and we have kind of been you know
42:10:00
we've been able to participate in some
42:12:00
of that we've been able to kind of watch
42:14:00
it we laugh at it but we were really
42:17:00
able to put it into the book and kind of
42:19:00
skewer it and that was just that was
42:21:00
really fun so I think you know I think
42:23:00
anybody who's interested in kind of like
42:25:00
how the world of magazines you know what
42:29:00
what is kind of happening behind the
42:30:00
scenes we basically put all the dirt
42:33:00
into the cult in this book so that was
42:36:00
just it was just really fun and really
42:38:00
cathartic to be able to do that yeah
42:41:00
yeah that's true right and and yeah and
42:44:00
then also we also put in echoes of
42:48:00
people we have encountered which which
42:50:00
was a lot of fun as well you know I I
42:52:00
was thinking one of the things that I
42:54:00
think always got me most excited is um
42:57:00
so we really as we were writing this we
43:00:00
always felt like you know this should be
43:02:00
this should be like a movie or a TV show
43:04:00
it's what's what people always told us
43:05:00
and we were we really wanted to take our
43:08:00
best swing at that and and so I was
43:11:00
always really excited when we came up
43:13:00
with an idea for just a scene or the way
43:16:00
that something would conclude or they
43:17:00
way they would roll out where I could I
43:19:00
could see it cinematically as well or
43:21:00
I'm like this is if this thing gets
43:23:00
turned into a TV show like this scene is
43:25:00
going to just be done verbatim in the TV
43:28:00
show right like we just we've envisioned
43:30:00
it in the right way the pacing is right
43:32:00
like I really love that because I I am I
43:34:00
don't know you know now that I've spent
43:35:00
all this time with entrepreneurs I was I
43:37:00
always think about everything is
43:38:00
building upon itself you don't just like
43:40:00
write a book to write the book right you
43:42:00
like write the book to make the TV show
43:43:00
which then gets you the contract to
43:45:00
write the next book like everything has
43:46:00
to build so so I was really excited when
43:49:00
we would do that kind of stuff and and
43:51:00
indeed we sold the option for the TV
43:53:00
show which does not mean that it'll
43:55:00
become a TV show the way that this works
43:58:00
in the industry is that a production
44:01:00
company or in our case to production
44:04:00
companies that partner together
44:06:00
basically purchase the ability to
44:10:00
the rights to package it together and
44:12:00
try to sell it to a network so now we
44:13:00
have you know we have these production
44:15:00
companies that have paid us a decent
44:17:00
amount of money to to have the rights to
44:20:00
do that and they're gonna find a
44:21:00
showrunner and try to sell it and we'll
44:22:00
see and you know the odds are of course
44:24:00
against us on this because it's a
44:25:00
competitive industry but I feel like we
44:28:00
we at least we we fulfilled the mission
44:30:00
all right we like made the book
44:32:00
cinematic and somebody recognized that
44:33:00
and are gonna try to turn it into
44:35:00
something that's very satisfying what a
44:37:00
great feeling there's no doubt I I think
44:40:00
that's awesome that's what I was
44:41:00
thinking when you guys were explaining
44:42:00
the book I kept seeing a two and a TV
44:45:00
show or in a series or a movie I kept
44:47:00
saying like this really sounds like it
44:49:00
would be interesting on the big screen
44:51:00
that's how I felt yeah well thank you
44:53:00
thank you we've I mean we're we hope to
44:56:00
see it on the big or small stream no
45:04:00
that's awesome I mean we talked a little
45:06:00
bit about the work obviously it's just
45:07:00
the overall of the different styles and
45:10:00
things that happen to happen I mean a
45:12:00
book sounds super interesting I hope
45:14:00
that our viewers are getting this that
45:16:00
you know it isn't just something that
45:19:00
happens overnight obviously you guys
45:21:00
have spent years doing this you have
45:22:00
other books you you have to have a team
45:24:00
together to do this I think it's so cool
45:26:00
that you know it's coming to fruition
45:28:00
and you guys get to play it out and see
45:31:00
how it comes together
45:32:00
I mean it's so cool that you're doing
45:33:00
that yeah it's that it's definitely
45:36:00
exciting and I mean I think you know I
45:38:00
think the goal and this is the goal of
45:40:00
anything that you create you know you
45:42:00
want the final product you want it to
45:44:00
seem like it was effortless effortless
45:46:00
like it just kind of appeared out of
45:48:00
thin air and that's really you know
45:51:00
that's the goal right is that you pick
45:53:00
up this book and you and you're reading
45:57:00
it and you miss your subway stop because
45:58:00
you're so absorbed and we've had that
46:01:00
actually already you know a few early
46:03:00
copies that we've sent out we've gotten
46:05:00
that feedback which is really really
46:07:00
really amazing but of course you know
46:10:00
we're Jason and I you know because
46:13:00
because being writers entrepreneurial in
46:16:00
this way like it is such a struggle like
46:19:00
we really want to go out of our way to
46:21:00
you know let everybody know like it's a
46:24:00
hard process and it's a long process and
46:26:00
it's it's a marathon not a race but you
46:30:00
can get to the point where you have this
46:32:00
product that seems like you just snap
46:34:00
your fingers and it appeared it's just
46:37:00
it takes a lot of work to get there ya
46:40:00
know that and it's applicable to the
46:43:00
inventor world entrepreneurs right
46:44:00
alright Jason I mean it sounds like
46:46:00
we're talking about a product like you
46:47:00
said earlier we are talking about a
46:49:00
product every right I mean that's the
46:51:00
thing like it's it's it is uh it is a
46:54:00
creative pursuit but at the end of the
46:56:00
day it's it's a product right if we
46:58:00
wanted it to just be a creative pursuit
46:59:00
not a product then we would have written
47:01:00
it for ourselves and performed it in our
47:04:00
living room and that would have been the
47:05:00
end of it but instead it's a product and
47:07:00
that means that we have to think about
47:09:00
commercial considerations and we have to
47:12:00
you know it we have we may have had an
47:15:00
idea we may have been in love with it
47:17:00
but then we heard from a whole bunch of
47:18:00
agents that it wasn't right and the way
47:21:00
that Jen was explaining that the last
47:23:00
third of the book had to be rewritten
47:24:00
and we had to say okay well we liked
47:26:00
those ideas but they're not right for
47:27:00
the marketplace so goodbye and we're
47:30:00
gonna do it again and you know you can't
47:32:00
be precious and I actually I think that
47:34:00
that I think that the greatest strength
47:36:00
that Jen and I both have as writers is
47:40:00
is that we are not precious
47:42:00
you know like for whatever you know
47:44:00
whatever whatever are kind of skill sets
47:47:00
that we've built up and are in you know
47:49:00
when we're both you know we both we both
47:52:00
very we've been fortunate to have a lot
47:54:00
of success in different ways and doing
47:56:00
different things but like but I honestly
47:58:00
think that the just the most important
48:00:00
thing is that we're not precious that we
48:02:00
if we work with people we you know we
48:05:00
understand we understand who the boss is
48:06:00
okay so if you know if if Jan is writing
48:10:00
for the New York Times or if I'm writing
48:13:00
for some other editor and the editor
48:15:00
says they need something we don't like
48:16:00
fight them you know you don't say like
48:18:00
yeah but I'm know right you know like
48:19:00
you have to understand what the
48:21:00
marketplace is and and you have to work
48:23:00
to that market and and every marketplace
48:25:00
is different right like we had we had a
48:27:00
lot more say in our in our book than we
48:30:00
would if we were writing for somebody
48:32:00
else's publication but but even still
48:34:00
when when
48:35:00
like our publisher would would ask us
48:37:00
for a change or would you know would
48:38:00
raise something um you know sometimes we
48:41:00
would push back but often the
48:42:00
conversation would be okay let's listen
48:44:00
to let's listen to people who have gone
48:46:00
through this many times before and and
48:48:00
ask the most important question which is
48:50:00
what will help the book sell what will
48:53:00
help this book sell because this because
48:54:00
the end of the day this is a product I
48:56:00
mean I like you know I
48:57:00
Jen and I slightly we feel differently
48:59:00
about this and that Jen Jen feels I
49:01:00
think a little more passionate on the
49:02:00
creative side and I I do too but somehow
49:05:00
I've also become the like this is a
49:07:00
product guy probably because I just
49:09:00
spend so much time with entrepreneurs
49:10:00
now but um but it is it's really it's a
49:12:00
product and so I you know like what's
49:15:00
gonna help it sell and also for that
49:16:00
matter you know like for example we were
49:18:00
dealing with the cover we went through a
49:19:00
whole bunch of different versions with
49:20:00
the cover and and it's like you can push
49:24:00
and push and push and push back and you
49:25:00
can like dig your heels in but at some
49:26:00
point you also have to recognize that
49:28:00
the publishing team has to be excited
49:31:00
about this book because they're the ones
49:32:00
that are gonna go out and sell it so if
49:34:00
so if we like let's say we wanted
49:37:00
something totally different and we said
49:38:00
that we it has to be our way because
49:40:00
it's our book well ok they'll publish it
49:42:00
with our thing but if the sales team
49:44:00
isn't excited about it then that's gonna
49:45:00
harm our sales so like at some point
49:46:00
yeah I mean we
49:48:00
there was a major retailer that is
49:50:00
interested in carrying the book and they
49:52:00
actually wanted to change to the cover
49:54:00
Wow and so we you know we we have we
49:59:00
definitely had some stipulations but but
50:01:00
we ultimately you know made it made a
50:03:00
change within the realm of what they
50:05:00
wanted because we recognize it's a
50:07:00
practical consideration right we want
50:09:00
that retailer to to carry our product um
50:13:00
you know they're not they're not they
50:16:00
don't have any say over the like
50:18:00
creative content you know that's inside
50:20:00
of it but but it's a marketing
50:22:00
consideration they know their audience
50:24:00
and we want their audience so so that's
50:27:00
a compromise that you know we were very
50:29:00
willing to me mm-hmm yeah very well said
50:32:00
both you guys I mean if the book isn't
50:34:00
available for people to read then then
50:37:00
you know they're not gonna get that now
50:39:00
is that information that helps so the
50:41:00
cover you make a concession and it's out
50:43:00
there and it helps everyone I think it's
50:45:00
it's just it is it's frustrating but I
50:47:00
mean the people that know though
50:49:00
guys that know I mean like you said so I
50:51:00
agree with you he's got you gotta make
50:53:00
some little concessions to to make it to
50:56:00
the big time there's no doubt about it
50:57:00
it's so cool so so real quick I mean I
51:00:00
know I've kept you guys on longer
51:01:00
because this has been so interesting how
51:03:00
we're comparing that's been fun
51:06:00
where's gonna be the places that people
51:08:00
can go and get the book oh well any I
51:12:00
mean anywhere
51:13:00
hopefully that major retailer we haven't
51:15:00
gotten word back from them yet but you
51:17:00
know it's not October yet so I mean
51:20:00
first of all obviously Amazon or
51:22:00
anything online but also walk into your
51:25:00
local bookstore and ask for it it should
51:27:00
be you know I mean wherever books are
51:29:00
sold
51:33:00
download it on your e-reader whatever
51:36:00
platform you're using it will be
51:38:00
available audio Jason do the audio voice
51:44:00
did Jason do the audio you know what
51:47:00
we're both doing it oh so so they hired
51:50:00
they hired and they hired an actor in
51:52:00
where is he somewhere in the south we
51:55:00
listen we listen to his like tryout and
51:57:00
it was really great so he's doing he's
51:59:00
doing the the he's really doing the book
52:01:00
but then the columns that the characters
52:04:00
write are in the book so Jen and I are
52:06:00
going into the studio in in about two
52:09:00
weeks and we're voicing it so I'll voice
52:10:00
the milk characters columns in shield
52:13:00
voice the female characters called and
52:14:00
so yeah so we'll be in there so yeah you
52:17:00
said you know I mean basically anywhere
52:18:00
it's called mr. nice guy if you want to
52:21:00
if you want to go to our website to
52:23:00
learn more it's mr. nice guy novel
52:25:00
that's mr not Mis DRM our mr. nice guy
52:28:00
novel calm gives you a little bit more
52:31:00
about the book and then various ways
52:34:00
that you can buy it and you know we
52:36:00
would really love we we would also
52:37:00
really really really love to hear from
52:39:00
people you can you can pretty easily
52:41:00
find how to contact us just google our
52:44:00
names and you'll find our websites with
52:45:00
our addresses or or maybe you can
52:46:00
include it in the show notes you know
52:48:00
and and we'd you know we'd really love
52:51:00
to hear from you yeah and the other
52:53:00
thing that I would stress is that if if
52:55:00
when you purchased a book I'm not even
52:57:00
to say if when you purchase the book
52:58:00
leave some reviews on the book go to
53:01:00
Amazon wherever you can leave
53:03:00
views for these guys the reviews really
53:04:00
help they'll help other people that may
53:06:00
be on the fence but they'll also help
53:08:00
rank the book because it's super
53:09:00
important to leave those reviews
53:10:00
that's totally sure appreciate you so
53:14:00
alright guys well listen it's been
53:16:00
awesome having you on today I really
53:18:00
would like to follow up and catch up and
53:20:00
see what's happening with the book
53:21:00
because I think it's really all I do
53:23:00
that you guys are both doing the book
53:25:00
and and and they're creative together
53:27:00
and really work together on it and I
53:29:00
just love that it was picked up and how
53:32:00
hopes to see it on the big screen as we
53:33:00
talked about earlier so do wait no we'll
53:36:00
invite you to the launch party that
53:39:00
sounds good we listed thanks a lot being
53:42:00
on today I appreciate your time I know
53:45:00
you guys are both busy and will look for
53:47:00
the book wherever books are sold as
53:49:00
jason said earlier and we'll be pushing
53:52:00
this episode out several times
53:53:00
especially close to the launch we're
53:55:00
gonna really try to push this up and and
53:57:00
get some people out there to to get the
53:59:00
book going wonderful thank you so much
54:02:00
pharmacist yeah super appreciate it
54:04:00
oh thank you guys thanks for being on
54:05:00
we'll all talk to you guys soon and to
54:08:00
all listeners thanks for being on and
54:09:00
we'll catch you guys next time on
54:10:00
inventors launchpad network