The Licensing Jungle Interviews Jeff Knapp Patent Engineer

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Podcast Notes

1You Tube Transcription
0:01
hi everyone and welcome to the licensing
0:05
jungle
0:06
I am carmine danesco your host for
0:08
today's episode
0:10
my co-host Jeffrey mangas is on vacation
0:13
today and he has given me over the reins
0:16
to walk you through this crazy jungle
0:19
that we call licensing today on the show
0:22
we have a patent agent his name is
0:24
Jeffrey Knapp and he has been helping
0:28
people with intellectual property for a
0:31
number number of years and we're going
0:33
to invite him on the show we're going to
0:35
get some of his background ask him how
0:37
he got into this industry and really get
0:40
some some information that can help us
0:43
move forward intellectual property is
0:44
one of the biggest questions that we get
0:48
here at the licensing jungle at
0:50
inventors launchpad it is really a hot
0:53
topic but that and when we have
0:56
professionals experts on the show like
0:59
Jeff Knapp
1:01
it really gets a lot of downloads a lot
1:03
of views and we get a lot of feedback so
1:05
let's bring Jeff on the show hey Jeff
1:07
you over there yeah good morning hi guys
1:11
morning good morning thanks for being on
1:12
the show where where are you joining us
1:15
from today I'm enjoying it from Omaha
1:18
Nebraska wow that's great I know that
1:21
you travel a bit for your work and I
1:25
know that it's not too early where you
1:29
are and again I appreciate you being on
1:32
the show today let's jump in and give us
1:34
a little bit of background about you and
1:37
and again how you got into this
1:39
intellectual property business well okay
1:44
um yeah my background is I've been in
1:48
patents for over 25 years now I started
1:51
out as a patent age or patent examiner
1:53
before it became up at agent about Oh to
1:58
that 1990 women house let's go do my
2:03
math right yeah like seven son 91 I say
2:09
no graduate 90 90 so it's not
2:12
I'm sorry again so long ago you know
2:15
like it goes after a while either that
2:17
gets kind of messed up so yeah I've been
2:21
been a patent agent since 1999 and but
2:25
yeah as far as for it and I've worked
2:28
for a bunch of different companies along
2:30
the way I've been a more for small offer
2:34
a few different small offers including
2:37
Advent now but in between I ended up
2:39
working for a bunch of different
2:41
companies I work for international
2:43
companies work for corporations work for
2:46
startups so I worked in a wide range of
2:49
companies but as far as your question
2:52
about like well how'd you end up in
2:54
patent law well it was kind of like you
2:58
know a lot of people think of his of
3:00
Dedinje you know it's like you don't
3:01
plan I'm going to eat there but you end
3:03
up there it's what happened is it out of
3:10
coming out of college I was seeing had a
3:13
chance to have a couple different
3:14
interviews and one of them was for a
3:19
brace of company that has been bought
3:22
out by Saint Gobain and then also the US
3:25
Patent and Trademark Office and I
3:27
interviewed for a patent examiner job on
3:32
campus and it turned out to like both
3:35
both groups had were saying that they
3:39
wanted to have me for the job but the
3:42
patent office actually gave me a job
3:45
offer and in the in the abrasive company
3:49
they were in the process to get bought
3:51
out by Cinco veins and the job offer
3:53
never materialized so I ended up taking
3:55
the job offer and it was actually on a
3:57
table and I'm not becoming a patent
4:00
examiner and you know and I really enjoy
4:03
patents so that's where I'm ended up
4:04
staying in my entire career
4:06
see I've been in patent work ever since
4:09
getting out of college
4:10
wow that's a that's one way like you
4:13
said to follow into it to me getting
4:16
into that so early in your career must
4:19
have really prepared you obviously for
4:20
further in your career but we here you
4:24
know again probably just hearsay crazy
4:26
about US Patent and Trademark Office how
4:28
busy the examiners are and the amount of
4:31
patents and paperwork that they go
4:33
through I mean is that kind of stuff I
4:34
mean is it true I mean are you guys
4:36
don't you know very true and you know
4:40
particularly you know when you talk
4:42
about you know people in in the
4:45
government work who don't earn their
4:48
money and things like that it's like I
4:51
kind of take that off the table when
4:53
you're talking about patent examiner's
4:55
because even patent examiner's who were
4:57
behind or lagging and things like that
4:59
are still happening meet a quota and at
5:04
a time where I was there it was like you
5:08
had four GS well which was about the
5:15
level that I was at when I was there you
5:18
had like eighteen point three hours for
5:20
ballast disposal to get any case done
5:23
which meant that you had like nine hours
5:26
to actually you got your first count at
5:30
not because the first office action done
5:33
so you have like nine hours to get it
5:35
done and then you had nine hours really
5:37
that you got when you had a disposal and
5:41
what a disposable would be is like an
5:43
allowance or to bed a bit or it with the
5:46
Board of Appeals so when you do that and
5:51
then in any office actions in between
5:53
those you don't really get any specific
5:56
credit for so you're thinking about from
6:00
start to finish you really have like 18
6:03
hours of anything else you're doing is
6:05
not borrowed time you can kind of see in
6:08
it and it's like and if you're like a
6:13
primary examiner they even have less
6:16
hours because it's kind of like a
6:17
pro-rated thing as you kind of like
6:19
coming up to GS 12 you actually get a
6:21
little bit more than city 18 hours you
6:27
know to get through it and then as you
6:29
get if you go to a higher level then
6:32
you'll end up having less so so yeah I
6:36
mean there's it's a real tight schedule
6:38
that you're working on
6:40
uh there's and so yeah when we as far as
6:45
from an inventor standpoint so you kind
6:48
of gotta realize of how little time that
6:51
they have in order to really pick up
6:54
hearing that your application understand
6:56
it and then really dive into it and give
7:00
you a good examination so you know one
7:04
of the things that you can kind of do is
7:06
to try to set up the argument and
7:13
especially kind of a problem-solution
7:15
sort of standpoint to where people can
7:18
really have pick up that application and
7:22
get a decent understanding of like where
7:25
your invention is going almost right out
7:28
of the gate because the examiner
7:31
probably isn't going to have time to
7:33
read your application from front to back
7:37
they're going to you know try to look at
7:40
the beginning I try to figure out from
7:43
the background and maybe you know like
7:45
the introductory part of your
7:47
application kind of figure out okay
7:50
where if you want to go where is kind of
7:52
the main invention lie and then they're
7:54
going to dive into the claims and the
7:56
only thing that they're going to kind of
7:57
look at your detail description for is
7:59
for specific questions that they might
8:02
have well because you just don't really
8:04
have a time to to rate it all the way
8:08
going to front the back and and then
8:12
still actually be able to do the
8:13
examination so that's kind of you know
8:16
from a real understanding of what an
8:21
examiner is sitting at that's what you
8:25
kind of got to realize is to make you
8:27
know from from your series is it is it
8:30
any better like what the examiner is up
8:32
against and I think that kind of helped
8:35
yeah it does and again I would suppose
8:39
and just from your explanation that it
8:41
is true the examiner is our overwhelm
8:44
they do a great job I mean I was spoken
8:46
with several examiner's with patents
8:47
that we put in and they've always been
8:50
nice they've always been carry courteous
8:51
they've always kind of given me
8:53
direction
8:54
and help and and I think that they're
8:57
like you said they're just they're doing
8:58
a great job they're doing the best they
8:59
can
9:00
we just are are held or bound by how
9:03
much time is available to that yeah you
9:06
know and one of the things that this
9:08
kind of hurt for a long time is it for
9:10
if they have there's actually a hidden
9:13
tax on innovation I because what happens
9:18
is it be for years and years and years
9:21
Congress is taken like ten to fifteen
9:25
percent off of what there was X of the
9:29
fees that were collected by the US
9:32
Patent and Trademark Office and just put
9:34
in the general budget and so and I knew
9:39
I knew DC was at one point was like the
9:44
like the Commissioner for patents he was
9:48
the director he wasn't a political
9:51
appointee but he actually read read had
9:54
the the day-to-day operation of the
9:57
working of running the Patent Office and
10:00
he said hey when we try to figure out
10:03
how much we're going to charge
10:05
applicants for all the various fees that
10:10
go along with the patent process we do
10:13
not captain aces at that point we were
10:15
not calculating in Congress was going to
10:18
take ten to fifteen percent off the top
10:21
so they were always ended up working
10:23
with the shortfall their Patent Office
10:25
to actually doing everything that they
10:27
really wanted because the money wasn't
10:30
there I the full amount of money wasn't
10:34
there so everything you know I they
10:37
weren't making the software changes as
10:40
fast they weren't hiring as many
10:43
examiner's as they really needed or
10:45
whatever that they felt to really make
10:47
the process work and so that that was a
10:51
real issue there that the Patent Office
10:55
has been for years
10:58
they have always kind of been stuck with
11:00
working with a short ball because
11:03
Congress is this big pile of cash it's
11:06
sitting out there and they take a part
11:09
of it and so really it ends up being a
11:11
hidden tax on innovation yeah I you know
11:14
they might as well call it the
11:15
innovation tax visit because it hit it
11:18
hits everybody who works does anything
11:22
anything through the Patent Office
11:23
whether its patents or trademarks we're
11:26
going to get hit with this fee diversion
11:29
that's what they call a fee diversion
11:31
it's not really a tax but it might as
11:34
well be a tax
11:35
yeah yeah I do not like soapbox now but
11:39
it really ticks me up
11:40
it takes me off the dome what's
11:42
happening is an examiner it really ticks
11:44
me off now that I'm on the other side
11:45
yeah well yeah yeah like you said you've
11:48
seen both sides of it and you need to
11:51
figure out ways to overcome it because
11:52
you know it's there on on the examiners
11:55
side question question for you so and
12:02
we'll kind of we'll kind of move on to
12:03
some of the other questions I have is
12:05
this really good information for people
12:07
who are inventors or are on a product
12:09
development side to see what the
12:10
examiners are up against is there and
12:14
have you've mixed a few things is there
12:15
like one two or three little tips you
12:18
can give to somebody who is creating a
12:20
patent or working to get a patent
12:22
through on things that they should
12:24
concentrate the help the examiner move
12:27
their patent along quicker uh yeah well
12:32
okay here's here's the good one of the
12:35
things that I would say is it you need
12:37
to be able to realize that you want to
12:39
get it ideally you want to get as broad
12:42
a coverage as possible so I you don't
12:48
want to always be like super focused on
12:51
just what your primary prototype might
12:56
look like you need to figure out okay
13:00
how broad can I really describe this I
13:04
and so so there's that part you want to
13:09
be able to describe as broad as you can
13:10
but then you need to start filling in
13:15
with extra details in your spec because
13:18
you may not be able to get the broadest
13:20
thing yeah sure even though it's like
13:24
ideally you're going to get the broadest
13:25
thing but then you also don't want to
13:29
get stuck with your very narrowest
13:31
version of it either because a lot of
13:35
times an examiner in the process may not
13:38
be able to allow your very broadest idea
13:40
but like the next level down might be
13:44
able to allow it okay and I've been on
13:47
both sides of the issue where the
13:50
specification either supported something
13:53
really broad or super narrow but nothing
13:57
in between and then you were kind of
13:59
stuck either giving somebody it spreads
14:03
like an examiner standpoint you might be
14:05
stuck giving somebody a lot narrower
14:08
claimed scope than what they really
14:11
could have gotten because you know if
14:13
there had to be information sort of
14:15
playing in between those two spots so
14:18
that's the one thing because you've kind
14:20
of got to know how to to craft your
14:22
application that's going to go from
14:24
broad to narrow so you can have all that
14:28
kind of range so that depending on what
14:32
prosecution does I you can be able to
14:35
have various spots to land along the way
14:39
um you know so that's one of the things
14:42
it's just kind of like knowing how to
14:44
craft up that that bread you know range
14:48
into your application one other thing I
14:50
would say is to realize that think of
14:57
your application kind of as a sales
14:58
document and you're trying to sell to
15:04
various different audiences at various
15:07
different times so one point you're you
15:11
know the first person you're trying to
15:12
sell it to is the examiner you know you
15:15
kind of got a set up a salute you know
15:17
problem and here's why where my solution
15:20
is and you know this is why I think I
15:24
really deserve having this app you know
15:25
application to get
15:28
so there's that and then also you know
15:31
provide a same problem solution sort of
15:33
standpoint that if you're trying to sell
15:35
it to somebody later from a in a
15:39
marketing standpoint because sort of be
15:42
set up there um and just thinking about
15:47
uh you know all the various people who
15:50
might be rating along the way you know
15:53
to get into litigation there's going to
15:54
be a different group of people who are
15:56
looking at it you know with a different
15:58
set of eyes in it so then there's
16:00
certainly you know things that you kind
16:04
of want to make sure that you don't set
16:07
up poison cones in your application
16:10
because there's certain things that is
16:12
considered a patent profanity okay
16:16
really to where you don't want to
16:18
guarantee something is going to happen
16:20
you don't want to say everything has to
16:27
be in there where you want to give
16:30
yourself some like you know optional you
16:33
don't use a lot of optional language it
16:36
can it may in some embodiments it may be
16:40
there or whatever so you kind of leave
16:43
yourself hope into where not everything
16:45
really actually has a you know not every
16:48
element that you describe has to be in
16:51
your convention actually to in your
16:55
claims in order to actually be you know
16:59
considered a really part of your
17:01
invention there's all that kind of stuff
17:03
that you kind of have to look at of like
17:06
all your the audience's who might end up
17:09
eventually reading it um also one of the
17:12
things too is like from a product
17:14
liability standpoint that you want to
17:16
kind of avoid or not but you know if you
17:21
start guaranteeing things you know that
17:24
could end up being sort of problematic
17:26
enough that I'm saying that the kind of
17:29
stepped outside of my shoes they were
17:32
that's really I just know that kind of
17:35
like from prior knowledge as far as but
17:37
that's really cut out of the scope of
17:39
what I can really say is
17:40
as a patent is it sorry about that I is
17:44
but I just sort of know like somebody's
17:46
print book pitfalls you can kind of run
17:50
into so and I'm saying it purely from a
17:53
standpoint of like what you're going to
17:55
say in your application not necessarily
17:57
knitting I'm not actually offering legal
18:00
advice and particular sense but it's
18:03
just a matter you kind of have to be
18:05
cognizant of various audiences that long
18:09
the way that can be reading this
18:11
application and so there is some
18:15
importance about being smart about what
18:18
you say and you don't say these
18:20
applications during five you know just
18:23
generally the less you have to guarantee
18:26
it's probably the better you know you
18:29
can say things might be better improved
18:32
whatever you don't necessarily have to
18:35
say it's the best or it's absolutely
18:39
failure resistant or failure proof may
18:43
be failure resistant you might can sort
18:45
of think you know it might resist a
18:48
certain type of failure but you don't
18:50
want to say it's kind of you know you
18:54
don't want to guarantee it Wow let's
18:56
there's absolutely no other way around
18:58
it but you know so there are the kind of
19:02
things that you just kind of have to be
19:04
cognizant of of what's out there so
19:10
that's a couple things that I would sort
19:12
of say that are really kind of important
19:14
I make screen kind of give yourself a
19:17
bread of what you're going to say and
19:19
realizing there's various audiences that
19:22
could eventually be read in your
19:24
application and you need to kind of tell
19:28
your story so that it can match up for a
19:32
various level you know various number of
19:36
audiences that might actually pick up
19:38
your application and you know so there
19:41
are certain things that you could end up
19:42
saying or not saying that can or hurt
19:46
either help you or hurt you in later
19:49
things that you know if you start
19:50
getting into you know other
19:53
you know things where you're in a
19:54
involved council an actual you know
19:57
legal council beyond just the package
20:01
wow that's some some really good
20:05
information because as you know I know
20:07
you've worked in the private sector I
20:10
know you helped inventors with products
20:12
and and in you know going through the
20:16
patent process and giving that
20:18
information to an inventor who is
20:21
overwhelmed by the patenting process I
20:23
also at the beginning of my career just
20:26
looked at patents like it was like wow
20:28
what am I going to do with that
20:30
and I thought to me it's a science
20:32
writing the correct patent and the
20:34
information you just gave it is so
20:36
important to put things down correctly
20:38
on the beginning and that information I
20:40
am hoping is going to help a lot of
20:42
people information that you just gave
20:44
out a quick question for you what's the
20:47
difference between a patent attorney and
20:50
a patent agent is there any difference
20:52
um yeah well the real simple difference
20:57
is that a patent attorney has the JD you
21:01
know where they went to law school boys
21:03
and the patent agent doesn't have a
21:08
little law degree but is whatever what
21:11
every patent agent of patent attorney
21:13
who's actually read you know has a
21:15
registration number that can be able to
21:17
work in the Patent Office but you have
21:20
to be able to have like a hard science
21:22
or technical degree or enough scientific
21:27
courses to be able to kind of make up at
21:30
the fact that you don't really have a
21:31
hard science or engineering type degree
21:33
so that's one of the things you have to
21:36
be able to do the other thing you
21:37
actually have to do is you have to pass
21:39
the patent bar exam so it's a separate
21:42
exam so even somebody who is an attorney
21:46
who has an engineering degree or
21:49
whatever they can't necessarily be a k :
21:56
solve the patent attorney and practice
21:58
before the patent patent office until
22:01
they pass the test so say so every
22:05
he has to pass his patent test there's
22:07
an asterisk oh and I had and if you were
22:11
a patent examiner for over four years
22:13
you can request any waiver on the exam
22:16
and part of that is is it I think it's
22:22
because the Patent Office sort of feels
22:24
like those people have been immersed
22:27
into patent law for four plus years they
22:30
should know the stuff and the cynical
22:33
putt side of me says it would look
22:35
really bad for people coming out of the
22:37
Patent Office that had been working
22:40
there for four years can't pass the exam
22:42
that they give so so I think I think
22:47
there's part of it it's just like they
22:50
don't want to see their 4x examiners
22:54
especially experienced ones coming out
22:57
and possibly failing an exam so I want
23:01
to get the waiver so there's that and
23:05
then one other thing is that there is
23:07
supposed to be like this ethical
23:10
component and so is what they do is
23:14
they'll publish your name in the in the
23:19
Official Gazette it's like the patent
23:22
publication kind of things with the
23:24
official thing that the Patent Office
23:27
puts out and put your name out there and
23:30
if anybody has any reason to sort of say
23:34
you know this guy has really bad ethics
23:38
or lady I don't think that they should
23:41
hit the practice but I don't know of
23:44
anybody you know personally who got
23:47
dinged by that and didn't get the
23:48
practice so really the two main things
23:51
that ends up being is you have to have
23:54
the technical background and you have to
23:56
have the passed the patent bar exam
0:00
which is a separate test and at one
0:04
point it only had like a a 30 percent
0:07
pass rate or each given time so people
0:11
had to take it multiple times but the
0:13
pass rate is up quite a bit on it
0:15
compared to what it used to be that you
0:17
know say 51
0:18
years ago on so it's but yeah so it's
0:23
that kind of thing to where you actually
0:24
have to have knowledge of what how the
0:28
Patent Office rules are and everything I
0:31
so so yeah that's that's what it is and
0:35
part of what you know the patent agents
0:40
are able to offer you know that may be a
0:42
kind of turn Ian's in is generally you
0:46
know our billing rates aren't
0:47
necessarily as high as what they are
0:49
for a patent attorney although like
0:54
Karen Advent we have a different model
0:56
where we basically feel like we're doing
1:00
each of us are doing the same project
1:02
and we just build her project and it
1:08
doesn't matter who's working on it and
1:10
so you know it's really like the value
1:14
of the actual work project that you're
1:16
getting is what you're kind of getting
1:18
billed for and not necessarily is the
1:22
partner with you know 15 years of
1:26
experience down the hall working on it
1:29
and you're going to pay that accordingly
1:31
or you pay for it you know the patent
1:34
agent you know it's like anybody works
1:36
on it we're going to give you like a
1:38
basically a flat fee and it doesn't
1:41
matter who's going to be working on it
1:42
so that's actually kind of a nice nice
1:44
deal for that's kind of a you know one
1:49
of the gala terrian stuff that we have
1:50
hearing it and it ends up helping you
1:53
know clients you know they don't going
1:57
to be stuck with a bill just because if
1:59
you know please maybe who's behind it so
2:03
sorry I got this sidetracked a little
2:06
bit but yeah that's what I think you
2:07
know so it does offer drilling a lot
2:11
more people out there because we have
2:12
patent agents who can who can do this
2:14
work because if it was only patent
2:17
attorneys you may not really have nearly
2:23
as well as with supply of
2:26
people who could actually you know
2:28
practice before the Patent Office
2:30
because you know a general attorney who
2:33
doesn't have the best you know the
2:35
technical background and who is enabled
2:37
in different patent bar they can't
2:40
really practice before the Patent Office
2:41
and they can't call themselves a patent
2:44
attorney neither you know they can be
2:45
calling myself some like a an IEEE
2:48
intellectual property litigator or
2:50
something like that but to actually be
2:53
able to work in front of the back of
2:54
this and you have to have a technical
2:57
background and stuff like that so I you
3:00
know so somebody who has like a liberal
3:02
arts background unless they go on to
3:05
grad school and end up having like a
3:08
hard science i degree they're not going
3:11
to be able to work in front of the
3:14
Patent Office so so I mean yeah it's you
3:18
know if you think about you know having
3:20
both the technical background and the
3:22
legal background you know it kind of
3:25
really cuts down the pool of people that
3:27
are out there and you're available and
3:29
meet those standards
3:31
Wow yeah I'm impressed either way I know
3:35
you guys there's a lot of people out
3:37
there that need your help and as you
3:40
said if they narrowed it down it would
3:43
it would kind of be overwhelming is
3:44
there a in your mind is there a specific
3:48
couple of things that an inventor should
3:52
look for when they're when they're
3:54
searching for a potential patent agent
3:59
well I think one of the things that you
4:03
want to try to do is find somebody who
4:06
you're comfortable with dealing with AI
4:09
and really sort of feel like yeah this
4:13
this guy really seems like he has my
4:16
best intentions at heart and really
4:23
cares about my invention and really
4:25
wants to sort of buy into what I'm doing
4:29
you know I mean it's going to cost you
4:30
some money to do it and so you might as
4:33
well I it's somebody who you feel like
4:37
isn't just in it
4:39
your money I mean it's it's you know in
4:43
sad sort of thinking I have to say that
4:45
that is out there but it it's like did
4:48
somebody seems like carrots and it
4:51
really does uh you know feel like your
4:55
inventions worth going after I and
5:00
that's so that's one of the things and
5:03
then just generally being what their
5:07
level of competence is you know it's
5:10
like I hopefully you have somebody who's
5:14
got you know a number of years of
5:16
experience at least three or four years
5:18
experience to where or they're at least
5:21
working with you know maybe a law firm
5:23
or they're going to have somebody you
5:25
know overseeing the work who had that
5:27
equivalent experience because it is
5:32
important what gets into your patent
5:34
application
5:35
alright and so that it's written pretty
5:39
well on because if that application
5:42
isn't written well a whole lot of things
5:46
can go wrong and prosecution because and
5:49
then what you find out is it you can't
5:53
fix a lot of problems because all your
5:56
all your information so it's not
6:00
considered new matter has to be in the
6:02
original application so excuse me so
6:06
that original application you're kind of
6:10
stuck with it in perpetuity if you do a
6:14
provisional you can do a couple of
6:16
Provisionals within the first year and
6:18
you can sort of stack them on each other
6:19
but by the time you file at
6:21
non-provisional application you're
6:24
you're pretty much stuck with the the
6:27
level of description that you have in
6:29
there and so it's really important to
6:34
have your idea totally fleshed out by
6:38
the time you got there and and that's
30:41:00
where you it's important to have those
30:43:00
varying levels of details in there you
30:48:00
know because there's like
30:49:00
times when when I can remember like it
30:53:00
came down to trying to be able to say
30:57:00
where a particular compartment was
31:01:00
placed relative to an engine of a
31:03:00
vehicle and all we really had in the
31:07:00
application was like where that engine
31:09:00
was supposed to be mounted and and kind
31:13:00
of had to pull that in and use that as
31:16:00
kind of like a general location because
31:20:00
we're trying to separate from how the
31:25:00
layout was in the other vehicle and you
31:28:00
know relative to where the engine was
31:29:00
and that and so yeah you know you'll
31:34:00
find out and then the thing is that one
31:37:00
of the tough things about writing patent
31:39:00
applications quite honestly is you don't
31:43:00
always have a crystal ball into what
31:44:00
details are going to be super important
31:48:00
I you know but it it is kind of good to
31:52:00
have that enough environmental details
31:55:00
because it's really easy to describe
31:57:00
what is your current invention because
31:58:00
it might be a subset of they don't like
32:03:00
seem like the microphone that's in front
32:05:00
of your face you're maybe thinking that
32:07:00
it's you know maybe the joint that's
32:10:00
holding the actual microphone but you
32:13:00
really may be at some point we're going
32:15:00
to need to be able to describe the
32:16:00
entire microphone stand or something
32:18:00
like that because they need to might end
32:22:00
up APNIC claiming in context of how it
32:25:00
fits with the rest of the microphone
32:26:00
stand and if you haven't described
32:28:00
described the rest of the microphone
32:30:00
stand you may not really be able to
32:35:00
describe that mounting any different
32:37:00
than just being like a state mic it's
32:42:00
just on a stick basically on it on a
32:45:00
stand it's it's out in the middle of a
32:48:00
floor and so those kind of details you
32:51:00
know providing that kind of environment
32:53:00
might really be sort of an important
32:56:00
detail that folks need to be able to
32:59:00
have so that's the kind of things they
33:00:00
really kind of need to be able to watch
33:02:00
out
33:03:00
oh man and I totally agree and that's
33:07:00
why I go back to saying what you guys do
33:09:00
and what you do is an art it's a science
33:12:00
because you have to look at something
33:13:00
and be able to relax to where you know
33:18:00
an examiner at the Patent Office is
33:21:00
going to understand what it is that
33:23:00
you're patenting and then you have to
33:25:00
describe its use how it's going to be
33:27:00
used where it's going to be used there
33:28:00
are so many small idiosyncrasies that
33:31:00
again I just I'm in awe every time I see
33:35:00
someone like yourself putting a patent
33:37:00
together putting the drawing together
33:38:00
knowing what's missing or what's got to
33:41:00
be added just by looking over the
33:42:00
paperwork it's pretty cool to what you
33:46:00
guys do yeah I try to put all that on on
33:49:00
paper is kind of a it's a challenge
33:52:00
definitely you know it's just you know
33:55:00
part of it is you know if you think
33:57:00
about with a patent agent or con
33:59:00
attorney you know you're wearing a few
34:01:00
different hats yeah you need to be able
34:03:00
to be a wordsmith here you're basically
34:06:00
sort of like an English major you know
34:08:00
on a technical writer so is that part of
34:11:00
it I you have to have you may not
34:15:00
necessarily be the smartest guy in the
34:17:00
room response from a technology
34:18:00
standpoint we have to have enough of a
34:20:00
technical background to where you have
34:22:00
an appreciation for what's going on to
34:25:00
where you can be able to you know
34:27:00
adequately describe the invention and so
34:31:00
that's you know one of the things too is
34:32:00
it you know like if you know that a
34:35:00
particular technology is sort of outside
34:38:00
the limit of what you're really
34:40:00
comfortable with you need to be able to
34:42:00
say that technology is not a good match
34:46:00
for me you know maybe I can help you
34:48:00
find somebody else who connections like
34:50:00
that and can better appreciate your
34:53:00
technology so that you know you'll get a
34:56:00
better application now so that's one
34:58:00
other thing too that's coming out there
35:00:00
on you know see and then of course then
35:03:00
you have the legal tag anywhere so
35:05:00
you're wearing like three different hats
35:07:00
you have to be able to be you know good
35:09:00
at the technical writing just that nuts
35:12:00
and bolts work and just getting all the
35:14:00
details in legal stuff just so you know
35:19:00
how to set up the application so that
35:22:00
you're you know in good shape for the
35:25:00
process later you're going to go through
35:28:00
and actually prosecute the application
35:30:00
and go through the back important with
35:32:00
the Patent Office and then I you know
35:35:00
just understanding or sort of like the
35:38:00
legal you know so your legal side of it
35:41:00
and then just having a technical
35:42:00
background and so yeah one little final
35:47:00
joke is it you know it would be odd my
35:51:00
the first law firm that I worked with
35:53:00
and said you know a huge patent attorney
35:56:00
and he says you know most attorneys
35:59:00
don't really want to say that you're a
36:01:00
real attorney anymore if your patent
36:03:00
attorney because you're not really in
36:05:00
court all the time and so and you're not
36:07:00
not always in trial so you're not
36:10:00
relating to turn and then the engineers
36:13:00
say oh you're not out there actually
36:16:00
designing stuff and working in the lab
36:20:00
or you know working on a you know shop
36:23:00
for something like that so you're not
36:24:00
really an engineer so even though we've
36:27:00
gotten degrees of stuff or the
36:29:00
background of Shaving you don't or we're
36:32:00
both you know you know members of both
36:35:00
areas you know both of a legal
36:39:00
profession in na and a technical
36:42:00
profession a lot of those people don't
36:45:00
really want to recognize that we belong
36:48:00
to either of those professions it kind
36:50:00
of snuck out on you're up on an island
36:52:00
you know being a patent geek you know so
36:56:00
so it does make it sort of a different
36:58:00
breed you know compared to a lot of a
37:01:00
lot of people and so that and I think
37:04:00
that's kind of like one of the things
37:06:00
that I wanted to get out there yeah
37:09:00
that's one thing I would agree with you
37:11:00
and you know the good guys out there
37:16:00
like you were really inventor centric
37:19:00
who really liked helping the product of
37:21:00
L for the inventors yeah as few and far
37:24:00
between the guys that are really
37:25:00
they're doing doing good for the
37:27:00
inventor industry the network the groups
37:30:00
of people you help with one question
37:33:00
that I get here at the inventors launch
37:34:00
pad a lot and even on licensing jungle
37:37:00
is that if if by chance I know that the
37:40:00
patent office is not really the patent
37:43:00
police like they're not out there
37:44:00
looking for someone using your product
37:47:00
or copying you they just hold the patent
37:48:00
work and they they say have a patent but
37:50:00
if if an inventor find someone who is
37:54:00
utilizing or breaching their patent or
37:57:00
whatever you would call it what would be
38:00:00
the best steps for them to do to try to
38:01:00
to try to protect themselves I know
38:04:00
going to court is probably very
38:05:00
expensive well you know there's a lot of
38:09:00
my colleagues here attorneys and you can
38:12:00
actually help with that sort of thing
38:14:00
and and is you know a lot of times the
38:19:00
process is you know hopefully you can
38:21:00
get it to where you know you can be able
38:26:00
to there's a process hopefully he can go
38:31:00
through before you actually hit going to
38:33:00
court and so you can even send up demand
38:38:00
letters and things like that and see
38:40:00
some assists and then you can they may
38:44:00
even be able to you know find out if
38:47:00
somebody's copying it might be able to
38:49:00
use some sort of licensing deal but
38:52:00
those are the kind of things that you
38:54:00
know that my people in my office can
38:56:00
help I deal with and you know because if
39:02:00
you know it's like okay it's pimping man
39:05:00
they're copying my son but if you think
39:10:00
of it you know you might actually have
39:14:00
an opportunity to make money off of your
39:16:00
your product at that point then you know
39:19:00
especially if you haven't been selling
39:20:00
it you haven't found a market for it and
39:23:00
you know that you hold a patent on it
39:25:00
they you might have some opportunities
39:28:00
there to do something with it you know
39:32:00
whether it's the licenses or you you're
39:34:00
actually going to take them to court
39:35:00
whatever you know
39:39:00
but that's the kind of stuff that you
39:40:00
know my colleagues can you know who are
39:43:00
patent attorneys and you can actually
39:45:00
put their name on a dotted line on
39:47:00
things like that well yeah that's some
39:49:00
of the stuff that we we can help with it
39:51:00
an advent right you know in addition to
39:56:00
helping you actually get the patents or
39:58:00
trademarks you know we can also help you
40:02:00
dive into you know the enforcement side
40:05:00
of it as well wow that's that's a great
40:08:00
way to look at it if someone's
40:09:00
infringing on your patent patent instead
40:11:00
of being mad about it maybe you try to
40:13:00
make make some money through it is a
40:15:00
it's a pretty good way to spin it yeah I
40:18:00
mean ultimately you know that that's
40:20:00
what you know if you think about what a
40:22:00
patent is it's like it doesn't
40:24:00
necessarily give you a right to make it
40:26:00
you know because there could be other
40:28:00
people's patents out there that you have
40:30:00
to worry about but it does give you the
40:32:00
right to exclude somebody else from
40:34:00
making using or selling your invention
40:36:00
you know you know say like if it's if
40:39:00
you got your patent in any less it
40:41:00
allows you to keep it somebody from
40:43:00
making using or selling it in us you
40:46:00
know but you have you know it's like
40:48:00
it's it's your right to try to exclude
40:51:00
them to do it but I mean it's not like
40:54:00
the government is going to go out and do
40:55:00
a point you know like there is stuff
40:57:00
like if you did like in copyrights and
41:01:00
particularly you know there's some
41:03:00
criminal actions that can be taken
41:05:00
against people but there's no real
41:07:00
criminal thing for somebody whipping off
41:12:00
a time which i think is kind of like
41:17:00
well you know why are copyrights get
41:21:00
that benefit of being considered you
41:24:00
know breaking a criminal law and not
41:27:00
other parts of the intellectual property
41:32:00
you know it's like it's still property
41:33:00
that's being stolen it's like why does
41:37:00
it get in one area but the other but
41:39:00
there's a little bit of it I think maybe
41:41:00
with copyrights it you know maybe
41:44:00
certain things that are a little bit
41:45:00
more cut-and-dry that somebody actually
41:47:00
out-and-out stole it whereas like with
41:50:00
patent law
41:52:00
short of somebody just doing a blanket
41:56:00
copy of your invention then you kind of
41:58:00
gotta dive into all the details to
42:00:00
figure out whether or not it really was
42:03:00
a you know an infringement or not and
42:07:00
things like that so maybe it's not only
42:08:00
so cut and dry but you know I think
42:13:00
that's part of why the system is set up
42:15:00
to have like possible multiple damages
42:18:00
you know we lead up to treble damages on
42:20:00
things you know where people have got
42:23:00
you know clearly ripped off people or
42:25:00
and sort of like it ends up being sort
42:27:00
of punitive just like you know a
42:30:00
criminal thing would be you know there's
42:33:00
kind of like the punitive element there
42:34:00
and I just not giving people back their
42:37:00
money for what the value was you know so
42:40:00
I think that that's part of like the
42:42:00
underlying patent you know public policy
42:45:00
of having the ability to have up to
42:47:00
treble damages is you know I'm giving
42:50:00
you know people of Canada stuff because
42:53:00
especially since there's not that
42:55:00
criminal side of it yeah and I would I
42:58:00
would think that unless you are a major
42:59:00
company or we're talking about billions
43:01:00
of dollars on that whole or in you try
43:06:00
to settle with the company who maybe is
43:08:00
infringing than to go to court I would
43:12:00
think and again it's just something that
43:14:00
you know because again it's so costly
43:16:00
anyway I've heard yeah no cost forgiven
43:19:00
yeah I mean it can be a costly venture
43:23:00
especially when just target into going
43:26:00
into litigation and stuff and you know
43:29:00
but you know we've got people here who
43:33:00
can help you navigate that you know easy
43:35:00
to use admin IP for your intellectual
43:40:00
property work which should definitely
43:44:00
appreciate it oh do the work yeah and
43:48:00
again we're going to start wrapping up
43:50:00
maybe you could give us a little bit I
43:52:00
know you've worked for some large firm
43:54:00
you've worked in the private sector
43:56:00
maybe you could tell us a little bit
43:57:00
about advent and also how people who are
44:00:00
listening can get in touch with you if
44:02:00
they if they asking questions or making
44:03:00
room for help
44:05:00
yeah yeah I'm now I add that IP or in
44:09:00
Omaha Nebraska and so one of the
44:12:00
advantages there is that you're paying
44:14:00
for permits in Omaha Nebraska not York
44:17:00
City or LA or Chicago but so I think our
44:22:00
rates are a lot more you know
44:24:00
competitive relative to you know more
44:28:00
standard mid less prices around in like
44:30:00
Chicago prices we also do a lot of flat
44:33:00
rate billing kind of work so you know
44:38:00
you can think of it cleared up you're
44:40:00
getting paid you know you're actually
44:42:00
working on you know paying for your
44:47:00
project rather than so much like how
44:49:00
much our billable rate is for a
44:51:00
particular hour and whether or not we're
44:54:00
going to get it done in the amount of
44:56:00
time that we said we were going to it's
44:58:00
like they say that we're going you know
45:00:00
you're going to get paid paid based upon
45:03:00
getting you're paying put the actual
45:06:00
product if you're actually if you're
45:08:00
trying to get a an application done
45:11:00
you're more worried about the final
45:14:00
product and what's in that final product
45:17:00
and you don't necessarily want to be
45:20:00
paying for how many hours it took you
45:22:00
know somebody to write it yeah so it
45:27:00
seems like it's a little more apples to
45:29:00
apples just like everything else you
45:31:00
know you buy something off the shelf you
45:33:00
know you're not worried about how many
45:35:00
hours it took somebody is billed at you
45:38:00
know you're looking to pay for X amount
45:40:00
of dollars for a bicycle or for a tire
45:45:00
or a car or whatever we you know care
45:49:00
that there was maybe they got that car
45:51:00
done a little but you know especially
45:53:00
the car took longer to build than they
45:55:00
thought it was going to you know you
45:57:00
don't want to be paid for those extra
45:59:00
hours but it cause you know for that for
46:02:00
that process to go on so we feel like
46:06:00
that's a lot more of a fair way of
46:08:00
building things
46:11:00
and you know generally I like I said we
46:15:00
sort of have a fairly egalitarian system
46:19:00
here where we build based upon the
46:24:00
product that we're going to give you
46:25:00
you're not getting charged based upon
46:28:00
you know which exact member of the
46:31:00
firmest is riding it you can sort of say
46:36:00
you know like all right I know objected
46:38:00
says that he's going to charge me you
46:41:00
know X thousand dollars to write this
46:44:00
application and do this response and I
46:47:00
know even if he hands it off to you know
46:50:00
one of the partners to do the work done
46:53:00
I know that whatever I said you know you
46:56:00
said was going to be the price of it he
47:00:00
doesn't have to worry about it jumping
47:01:00
just because somebody got in the hall
47:03:00
who is higher up the food chain is
47:07:00
working on it instead of him you know so
47:10:00
I think that's one of the things you
47:12:00
know that people can be sort of
47:15:00
comfortable with with hinging our firm
47:18:00
here at add to be the work great well I
47:24:00
know that I know that we've had a couple
47:28:00
people that have told us about how we
47:31:00
wanted to reach out to you guys I was
47:34:00
kind of impressed by the spectra by the
47:37:00
full spectrum of stuff that guys do it
47:39:00
Advent I mean everything from patent
47:41:00
procurement to trade secrets and
47:42:00
copyright intellectual property
47:44:00
licensing I mean the due diligence on
47:48:00
all of this I mean it seems like you
47:50:00
cover pretty much anything that somebody
47:51:00
needs especially like you said even on
47:53:00
the copyrights and trade secret stuff
47:54:00
this is pretty cool and you know again I
47:58:00
think that because it is priced the
48:01:00
correct way or even on the flat rate
48:03:00
services you know you're actually going
48:05:00
more towards the you know the
48:07:00
middle-class inventor guys that need
48:10:00
that help and don't have the millions of
48:12:00
dollars to spend on intellectual product
48:15:00
I think that you know adventists is
48:17:00
really helping the inventor world you
48:20:00
know protect their protectors their
48:23:00
intellectual property
48:25:00
guess if you want to say yeah I mean
48:28:00
that's our goal you know it's like and I
48:30:00
think that's the reason you know most of
48:32:00
us you really get into the business is
48:34:00
it you know kind of residual we know
48:37:00
we're going to get paid pretty well but
48:39:00
I think we're really in because we want
48:42:00
to be able to help inventors and
48:45:00
businesses succeed with their
48:46:00
intellectual property you know because
48:49:00
you know we're kind of translators in a
48:52:00
way you know because there's patent
48:53:00
speak and then there's like everybody
48:56:00
else speak and try to translate between
49:01:00
patent speak and and regular even
49:03:00
technical speak is kind of a it's it's a
49:09:00
talent and it is acquired its acquired
49:12:00
over a number of years to be able to
49:15:00
switch between those two languages and
49:18:00
want to call them that and and and I
49:21:00
think that that's what we sort of offer
49:24:00
here is is you know a good translator
49:27:00
really cares about helping you know
49:30:00
inventors and and just business people
49:34:00
protect your intellectual property yeah
49:36:00
well I think it's great and without
49:38:00
sounding like a commercial for advent
49:40:00
again I think that it's a pretty large
49:42:00
firm and I know you guys cover
49:43:00
everything but you the costs and the
49:46:00
fees you know there's there's still
49:48:00
achievable there's there's still as you
49:50:00
said at a small firm pricing which I
49:55:00
really really I am oh yeah I think that
49:58:00
inventors appreciate it yeah you know
50:01:00
it's like we're not that big boy it's
50:03:00
just a matter for the you know the range
50:05:00
of people that we have here we were able
50:09:00
to cover everything and we've got a good
50:12:00
mix of people who are in different
50:14:00
backgrounds you know from electrical
50:16:00
mechanical minds reaction material
50:18:00
science background when I'm originally I
50:22:00
say we've got some buddies in
50:24:00
pharmaceuticals
50:26:00
pharmaceutical background so chemical so
50:31:00
you know even with
50:33:00
having you know you know not that big of
50:36:00
a Ferb were still have the capability of
50:40:00
what a lot of larger firms can offer
50:43:00
without the crazy overhead and
50:46:00
everything like that so and so I think
50:49:00
that that's what you know helps us make
50:51:00
make us competitive with everybody else
50:53:00
and and and we're small enough to still
50:58:00
care about the people that are coming
51:00:00
through our door and and entrusting
51:03:00
their intellectual property with us now
51:06:00
that's that's the biggest thing it is
51:08:00
such a personal decision to choose as
51:11:00
you said and where you've described it
51:13:00
previously in our talk that picking an
51:17:00
intellectual property agent or attorney
51:19:00
or a firm it is very important for the
51:23:00
success of your overall product and
51:26:00
again Advent IP has proven through
51:29:00
several of the inventors and prizes that
51:32:00
we spoken to to be able to take care of
51:34:00
that and anybody that's looking real
51:35:00
quick it's Advent IP calm
51:38:00
so that's Advent the letter I the letter
51:41:00
P dot-com and and if somebody wants to
51:45:00
get in touch with you Jeff personally
51:48:00
should they contact you on Facebook on
51:51:00
LinkedIn or just email you is there or
51:53:00
should they just contact the guys over
51:54:00
at I Advent uh you can get a get with me
51:58:00
on LinkedIn except that you know you
52:03:00
know most everybody's uh requested a
52:06:00
good some like something game with me
52:09:00
and then also of my my email here and
52:14:00
then is J Maps so it's J K and a P P at
52:18:00
Advent a BB ent IP calm so yeah J Napa
52:26:00
and Advent calm first I put my email
52:29:00
here great great and just for all your
52:32:00
listeners out there we will also have
52:33:00
all this information on our show notes
52:36:00
on our inventors Launchpad Network page
52:39:00
that's inventors launchpad comm anybody
52:43:00
that wants to get in touch with Jeff if
52:44:00
you have any issues or problems just
52:46:00
certainly
52:47:00
get in touch with me and inventive
52:49:00
launchpad on linkedin or facebook as
52:51:00
jeff as mentioned i will get any
52:55:00
questions or any any information needed
52:58:00
over to Jeff and and again Jeff I
53:01:00
appreciate all the information that
53:03:00
you've given today it was very helpful
53:04:00
some of that information can really help
53:07:00
people not only save time but resources
53:10:00
and funds and that's what's important in
53:12:00
helping out the inventors getting them
53:14:00
on the right direction helping them move
53:15:00
forward without having those setbacks
53:18:00
and from the inventor world we really
53:20:00
appreciate everything you're doing out
53:22:00
there
53:23:00
Thanks appreciate it thanks for the time
53:25:00
this morning no problem thank you Jeff
53:27:00
you take care buddy all right take