The Licensing Jungle Interviews Keith Lawrence Inventor of the “OUT Tool” “Fish Jaw Spreader”

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The Inventors Launchpad Network – Is proud to present The Licensing Jungle, Co-Hosted by licensing expert Mr. Jeffrey Mangus of Product Coach USA and Carmine Denisco, Managing Partner with Inventors Launchpad. As a Product Licensing Coach Jeffrey’s greatest strength is that he can simplify what you would like to accomplish into an easily implementable step-by-step plan. Helping you without the need to for him to have extensive knowledge in your product or area of expertise because you are the inventor, the expert. Jeffrey’s expertise is in knowing the product licensing process, the inventing sequence and how to move people forward, which usually involves overcoming many common obstacles. Let this Podcast help you get over the bumps, steer clear of the sharks and get you where you and your product deserve to be.

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Podcast Notes

1You Tube generated podcast notes, please excuse any typos.
0:00hi everyone this is carmine disco i want
0:04to welcome you to the licensing jungle
0:07this is a podcast show that we have
0:10that's going to be talking about
0:12everything licensing I want to introduce
0:15my co-host the guide today who will walk
0:20you through the jungle through that
0:21craziness that we all call licensing his
0:24name is Jeffrey mangas and he is an
0:27expert in licensing he is going to run
0:29the show for today
0:30my co-host Jeffrey take it away Thank
0:35You karma and thank you so much for
0:37tuning in to the licensing jungle
0:40podcasts are really excited about giving
0:42this this platform for inventors to
0:45learn all about licensing and all
0:48everything that entails this morning
0:50we're going to have a guest it's
0:52actually a member of the licensing
0:54jungle Facebook group and if you do not
0:56know about that group please look it up
0:58the licensing jungle on Facebook and
1:00feel free to ask to join we'd love to
1:02have you part of it but this morning
1:05we're interviewing Keith Lawrence he is
1:07in a prolific inventor and he is
1:10licensed a new product and we wanted to
1:12have him on good morning Keith how are
1:15you I'm great Jeffery and carmine thanks
1:17for having me on on the podcast I know
1:20if you're saving you're very welcome
1:22really glad to hear a have you here so
1:24if you don't care we'll just jump right
1:25into it and you know it's a friendly
1:27atmosphere what we'd like to talk about
1:29is first of all tell us about yourself
1:31and you know how you kind of got started
1:32inventing okay interesting story my
1:36background is home building construction
1:41been around agriculture a lot living in
1:44Oklahoma and also currently a career in
1:48real estate so all of those things kind
1:50of tend to have some some creativity
1:53involved in in them and also some
1:57innovation but actually the the
2:00particularly that we're going to talk
2:01about today I came up with the original
2:05idea on a fishing trip in Canada with my
2:07father a number of years ago and
2:11if anybody knows anything about fishing
2:13in Canada the tea the fish usually have
2:17teeth Pike and muskie and walleye those
2:21are all all fish that are pretty
2:23aggressive and they have some very sharp
2:25teeth and there's a small tool that you
2:30can buy locally up there that holds the
2:33mouth open so that they won't bite you
2:36and it wasn't very effective in my
2:40opinion so I thought about it and came
2:43up with a new idea and here several
2:46years later it's on the market that's
2:48that's actually really interesting
2:50because we mean Aleksei my my first
2:52product has been it back in 2005 so yeah
2:55many years went by so how many years did
2:58it good how many years was it before you
2:59actually started really for called
3:01seriously well I work I started working
3:03the the idea came earlier but I really
3:06started working on it seriously about
3:082010 so it's been seven years ago and at
3:13that point I started making some inroads
3:16into just learning about product
3:19development learning about either
3:22bringing it to market either through
3:24venturing it or manufacturing it myself
3:25or licensing and obviously I chose the
3:29licensing route to as much easier path
3:32for me to come to market that's really
3:35good I was one of the things I wanted to
3:37talk about I know a lot of bidders
3:38things there is a time of need
3:40they do meet the middle of the road do I
3:42want to manufacture it or do I want to
3:44license it and so what what steer you
3:48toward the licensing side more well in
3:52understanding that to venture a product
3:55it would a very simple product that
3:58required some injection molding it could
4:01cost a quarter of a million dollars to
4:04get something like that up and going and
4:06a few thousand product in an inventory
4:09and warehouse and even at that point
4:12there's no guarantee that the market is
4:15going to accept it and buy it so that
4:17just seemed like a huge risk that I
4:20wasn't willing to take that's that's
4:23really good and that's what I
4:25students as well because licensing is a
4:28low risk high return business you know
4:31but there is a lot of work involved and
4:33and if there is no and I one thing I do
4:36say is that there is no magic pill I
4:39mean there's no nobody's just going to
4:41hand you a check you got to do the work
4:43so that's one that leads me into a
4:45question that you know how long did it
4:48take as far as you know timewise like
4:51from the time you actually started doing
4:53it seriously to the time you secured to
4:55likely an agreement just just in general
4:57how long do I don't get to take about
4:59five years yeah I initially submitted
5:04the product for analysis I guess you
5:07would say to a local local university
5:10who has embitters assistant service and
5:13they looked at the product in terms of
5:16patentability manufacturability and so
5:19forth and gave me some ideas to help and
5:23then then after that it was more or less
5:27up to me to find the path forward and
5:30really that was probably the longest
5:33teacher took the most effort was finding
5:36that path forward in licensing how
5:40actually how to get it done well those
5:43are that's great it's almost like he
5:45scripted this today for me because you
5:47know that that paths are talking about
5:50where did you study books did you watch
5:52videos what path did you take with that
5:55I I read I read books I watched videos I
5:59listen to podcasts just like we're doing
6:02here but I basically I self educated
6:07myself tried to learn as much as I could
6:10about patents and the whole the whole
6:14patent system which even to this day is
6:17a little bit murky and obtuse for me to
6:20get my head around then yeah we just had
6:24a podcast last week first performers
6:26with a patent attorney and yes it you
6:28know patents and the whole the whole
6:31patent platform is very very came being
6:35very confusing you know and I do
6:37encourage anyone
6:39- you're not sure you know do you seek
6:42out a patent attorney for any kind of
6:44questions you have that's great so in
6:48five years so you obviously taught
6:51yourself and I'm all about that - I
6:53studied and taught myself a whole lot I
6:55did eventually did get a coach and had a
6:57mentor you know to guide me through some
7:01things really teach me you know how to
7:03really find in the process but what
7:05during the five years did you find
7:07yourself reaching out to a lot of
7:08companies or I mean what what was the
7:11process there well it was just like
7:18licensing coaches and and the materials
7:23teach is you just have to reach out and
7:25talk to a lot of people I started with a
7:28provisional patent application of course
7:29and of course I had one year to do that
7:33- to try to license it well that year
7:37came and went so it was a decision time
7:40then whether or not file a utility
7:43patent and I did make a decision to go
7:46forward with filing me totally Phat
7:48while I was still reaching out to two
7:50companies I would have would have rather
7:54licensed it within that year but that
7:56didn't happen
7:57and of course someone might ask women
8:00why did you go forward if he didn't have
8:02interest and really the reason I went
8:05forward is simply because the the
8:08reaction to the product by every
8:11fishermen end user who would use the
8:14product was very positive so I knew that
8:18that would translate into into the
8:21market once once a company started
8:25producing it that's really good so you
8:27kind of you know because I encourage
8:30students and carmine I know as well
8:32we're in agreeance that mean and one of
8:34the first things you want to do is study
8:36the marketplace you know and yeah and
8:38then tailing and studying the
8:39marketplace that can lead into what
8:42you're talking about getting evaluations
8:44from people getting opinions which is
8:46really great you know but then again at
8:49the end of the day you're the inventor
8:50you have the ultimate say where it's
8:52going to go
8:52Wow you feel and if you believe it in
8:54your product and what you just talked
8:56about something I want to address I call
9:00through the provisional patent trap
9:02you know because of original patents are
9:04great but that's one of the problems
9:05that a lot of the bidder is doing you
9:07tell me if you agree it's or not that
9:10they they file the provisional patent
9:12applications and yes you have 12 months
9:14but as you said 12 months goes very very
9:17fast so I encourage students and
9:21inventors to be ready before they file
9:24get everything ready to go the marketing
9:25materials get everything ready to go and
9:27then file and use every every minute of
9:30that 12 months to you know to acquire a
9:32copy yeah yeah I agree I would agree
9:35completely with that yeah you need to
9:37have everything ready to go names phone
9:40numbers email addresses as much as you
9:43possibly can have that's great advice
9:46and ground running yeah that's that's
9:49the kind of stuff that we're talking
9:50about because you know you've been
9:52experiencing you understand you just and
9:54hopefully our listeners will understand
9:56that you were you were prepared you had
9:58yourself going yes you filed your
10:00provisional and you took that year but
10:03you you obviously get a lot of research
10:05and a lot of companies a lot of names
10:07and that's the that's the name of the
10:08game another another interesting thing
10:11that kind of ties in with this is
10:14because it took some extra time I
10:18isolated back and forth between well
10:20maybe I should manufacture this myself
10:22and in talking to contacts at companies
10:26in particular contacts at retailers I
10:30learned that the retailers are generally
10:35not apt to purchase from a single SKU
10:41vendor so even if I had manufactured it
10:45myself and it had a great profit margin
10:48there was a strong likelihood that the
10:51retailers wouldn't buy it because I was
10:53a single product company that is you
10:56know you're so right and I knew that as
10:59well you know I know in Walmart's and
11:01maybe that Bath and Beyond they just
11:05it's hard to get in
11:06affect almost not saying it's impossible
11:08what am I going to say that no but
11:10you're you're right it's having a one
11:13SKU company it's almost you know it's
11:16very very difficult to get in those type
11:19of you know retailers and those buyers
11:22point is companies let me just jump in
11:24in on that you guys are both exactly
11:25right if you probably join up with some
11:28type of wholesaler that's already not
11:30only is it the product but there's a lot
11:32of back office technology that has to be
11:35implemented that is costly to be able to
11:38not only fill the orders but receive the
11:40orders and receive payment plus you know
11:42with a large company you're waiting a
11:45long time to get your money back they're
11:48paying on 60 days or 90 days but they're
11:50they're holding money back on returns
11:53and then have sales so as Ethan differ
11:56as you as you said working with with the
11:58retailer it sounds great but you know
12:02there's a lot of pitfalls that also I
12:04mean it's a great it's great and you're
12:06right carefree people do it I mean there
12:08are some people out there that have a
12:10single SKU and they're dealing with
12:11retailers and I think it's great that
12:12they're doing that but it's a lot more
12:15than just just that golden curtain
12:18there's a lot behind it
12:19yeah see the little man behind the
12:22curtain right hey Keith I I have one I
12:24have a couple questions for you all so I
12:26don't need to jump right in there but
12:28going back to - when you first came up
12:30with your idea and you were moving
12:31forward and I know you got some good
12:34feedback from it what were some of the
12:36things and some of the things that set
12:40you back some of the I don't even like
12:42use word mistakes but things when you
12:44weren't knowledgeable before you move a
12:47lottery before you educated yourself was
12:49there anything that were were setbacks
12:50for you sure there were there were some
12:55I made a notes here
12:58probably I feel like that just limited
13:02limited funds and resources was probably
13:05the the biggest thing in and of course
13:10holding down a wouldn't believe wouldn't
13:12call this a setback but an obstacle
13:14holding down a full-time job and
13:16full-time work you just have to
13:19it in and and not get discouraged just
13:22keep moving forward on if you've got
13:25half an hour a day then work on it half
13:27an hour a day yeah well yeah sorry
13:31carmine go ahead oh and you you're
13:32probably to say the same thing as I was
13:34yep that's that's very commendable like
13:36you said to be able to stay focused and
13:38work on this product over a certain
13:40amount of time a lot of a lot of people
13:43they put the product they put it off to
13:45the side and and might take a number of
13:47years before they even work on it again
13:49but being able to work through that
13:51that's that's awesome yeah I was I want
13:54to reiterate as well you know I always
13:58encourage inventors to always show up
14:01show up just like keep said 30 minutes a
14:04day an hour a day whatever it is if you
14:07got time to watch an episode of you know
14:09Seinfeld and you have time to work on
14:11your business so I'm always encouraging
14:14that's you know believe it or not that
14:16that will make a huge difference in your
14:18in your business or really will even
14:21though Seinfeld is a good show I love
14:23something but one of questions that you
14:28know because you keep being a member of
14:30the jungle and there's a lot of folks in
14:33there who are still new to licensing and
14:35new to inventing in general and are
14:39obviously facing challenges and
14:41obstacles that we may not know about
14:43keep footing what do you think is your
14:46what was your one of your biggest
14:47challenges in getting your product
14:50license what maybe there was a few but
14:53just you know just tell us about what
14:55you what you thought was a real is a
14:57real struggle for you well I think maybe
15:03one of the few of the big struggles were
15:06like say staying staying motivated not
15:10not being discouraged and don't get me
15:12wrong I there were plenty of times I
15:14became discouraged and and just thought
15:18well this just isn't going to go so I'm
15:21going to have to set it aside and so
15:26that was a that was a big thing
15:28my wife fortunately my wife believed
15:32me and then encouraged me to to keep
15:35going she had seen the reactions of a
15:38number of people who liked the product
15:40and were enthusiastic about the product
15:43so that that enthusiasm from others kept
15:47me going I'd say it is important to be
15:52around a small trusted group of mentors
15:56advisors coaches whatever a person
16:00chooses to to stay engaged and stay stay
16:05involved with with their product and
16:09that's probably one of the hardest
16:11things I did not utilize a coach or a
16:15mentor through the process so I did have
16:18some trusted friends that were were
16:21enthusiastic about what I was doing but
16:24to really be in the in the process they
16:30were not integral in the process itself
16:33and so that's that's a really important
16:37thing for people to to be a part of
16:40something like the licensing jungle and
16:45get a product coach or mentor to help
16:49them through that process we really
16:52appreciate you saying that Keith again I
16:55want to say this we didn't pay keep to
16:57say that thank you very much we good but
17:00you know you're right learn and what you
17:02just said is very important because a
17:05lot of inventors when you have to you
17:09know to learn to set yourself to be a
17:12professional someone you did at some
17:14point you do have to say well put the
17:16product off to the side and let it let
17:18it rest for a while and come back to it
17:20or keep pushing it but but you're right
17:23I have the support of my wife as well
17:25and family and you know would you have a
17:28coach or friends or mentors it's I'm
17:31glad you said that because it can never
17:33work alone it takes a team of people you
17:37know whether it's two people believe in
17:39you or three or whatever but it you know
17:41ultimately you have to rely on someone
17:46help you in the business and there's a
17:48you know because I see a lot of lone
17:49Wolf's out there who are afraid to tell
17:51people about their idea and at the end
17:53of the day unfortunately some of these
17:55ideas get stuck in the garage never see
17:57my stay because of being afraid to talk
18:00about it or share with other people so
18:02that's really I'm only glad you brought
18:03that up and you know you utilize your
18:05your friends your mentors your people
18:08that you trusted to help you with your
18:10product and keep you on track that's
18:11really great and for me I would say that
18:14that that small close-knit group was
18:16important I would caution people from
18:20well maybe it's just me but I would
18:23caution people about taking a new idea
18:25and just telling the whole world about
18:26it because oh absolutely yeah that's
18:29yeah you want to definitely keep it you
18:31know to yourself but you definitely want
18:33to share it with people that you
18:34definitely trust and not spray and pray
18:38for say and put them yeah yeah
18:40absolutely so but you know anyway this
18:44has been great I know we were closing in
18:47on sometime karma do you have any other
18:48questions for tea yeah I have about 20
18:53no one can call me up later you know
18:58it's great information because you know
18:59again keep you you have really
19:01persevered and and stuck through it
19:03and it gives hope to people who are
19:05licensing people who are inventors that
19:07you can do it and it's very important
19:10that people see people succeeding not
19:13just you know those people that say hey
19:14that was my ID I saw it on TV you know
19:16they had the idea 30 years ago and they
19:18never did anything and then they act
19:20like the system's broken you know but
19:22someone else has persevered and you did
19:25exactly what you needed to do so
19:27question one of the questions I have for
19:29you is you obviously called multiple
19:33companies to license your product you
19:37have a couple of the questions that they
19:40ask you where you're you know 60 80 % of
19:44the companies that was there a specific
19:45question or multiple questions that
19:47would see
19:49Wow I haven't thought about that for a
19:51while a number of the masks if the
19:55product is patented and of course
19:57natural my answer was always its patent
20:00pending even even after I had filed for
20:03a utility patent and was still calling
20:05on companies that had not issued so it
20:08was it was patent pending and and most
20:11of the time all the companies were good
20:12with that I had a sale sheet that I was
20:15ready to send out to them one thing I
20:18did not have and would have been I think
20:22would have been very useful and has now
20:24become almost mandatory with with
20:29products and that is now nowadays a
20:30video demonstrating the product I think
20:33that might have helped with with
20:37companies considering licensing of
20:41course my product is in the fishing
20:42industry and I learned that that's a
20:46rather rather closed industry they don't
20:49those companies don't seem to open up to
20:52outside outside product developers
20:55outside in bettors which is fine but I
20:58did I did find that the company that I
21:01eventually like to sit with is a small
21:04company and I actually had passed over
21:07them in the beginning contacting them
21:10and then came back around when there's
21:14no one else contact so that's one thing
21:17I would say to people is to contact
21:20everyone that's possibly on the list and
21:23and also remember that personnel changes
21:29at companies so if you get a no come
21:33back in six months eight months twelve
21:34months you might be talking to a new
21:37person in sales or marketing they might
21:40have a completely different take on your
21:41products hmm that is very good advice
21:44that's exactly what I wanna coach you
21:47know because people change jobs people
21:50leave positions and new people come into
21:52this place that yeah that will
21:55definitely help you that's really great
21:56advice yeah thank you can in and you
21:58know it's great about that Keith is on
22:00the retail end we do a lot of placement
22:02product placement in retail here at the
22:04inventor launch pad and what we find is
22:07that the buyers for certain product
22:10categories are switched around a lot you
22:13know we'll be just getting used to a
22:15buyer and swap them out to another
22:17division and I think they do that so
22:20that don't get used to it so that the
22:23the buyers that are you know we don't
22:25become friends with them or they're not
22:26letting their emotions decide on the
22:28product which is a great it's a great
22:30idea it really is because you know
22:31they're not allowed to accept a pen
22:34they're not allowed to beautify them
22:35lunch when you go meet with them I mean
22:36there are they are strictly about your
22:39product and then so so well yeah you're
22:42a jock you're right
22:43the companies are always constantly you
22:45know it's it's a living thing a
22:47company's a living thing is constantly
22:48changing that's some great advice to do
22:51that because again you've done this and
22:53you know I want people who are
22:56struggling who are looking to life and
22:58people that are working with Jeffery and
23:00people that aren't I want them to
23:01realize that you know it happens we just
23:04have to keep working on it so that's
23:05really good one question about your firm
23:08sheet that you got and you know
23:09obviously without good things in that
23:13sense the the contractor term sheet that
23:16you when you're like senior product was
23:19that something that you could have gone
23:20through on your own or you know
23:23obviously recommend having an attorney
23:25but was it something that you think that
23:28you could went through on your own or
23:30you would recommend having an attorney
23:31look at I would definitely recommend
23:34having an attorney look at it in my
23:38particular case as it turned out it was
23:41actually my license on excuse me my
23:44patent attorney uh he had done some
23:46licensing with with another position he
23:49held so so he had some licensing
23:55business experience with with contracts
23:58I don't I don't think in general a
24:01patent attorney is the the right
24:02attorney to review a licensing contract
24:06he's a good business attorney and
24:07licensing attorney so that's that's an
24:10important piece just so happened that my
24:13patent attorney had
24:15could wear both hats but I definitely
24:19read the contract over and over and over
24:23and shared it with some of this trusted
24:26group that that I mentioned earlier
24:29that had some business experience and
24:31was able to to come to terms with with
24:36my licensing partner and and got most of
24:40felt like most of what what I wanted and
24:43they got what they wanted as well that's
24:45great it's really good
24:47that's great it is really good now did
24:49you have an attorney on and maybe you
24:51can help me with this also Jeffries you
24:53have an attorney during negotiations or
24:57while you're talking with the company
24:58you didn't like have an attorney that
25:00kind of would kind of slow down the
25:01works or you just kind of after you got
25:03the contract brought the attorney in
25:05what's the best way well for me I stayed
25:11in contact with my attorney via phone
25:14and by email and but I did the direct
25:17communication with the company that's
25:21exactly what what I did as well you the
25:23same thing I did I was I did the
25:26speaking and you know as a licensing
25:29attorney helped me on my end
25:31especially with medical and so it was
25:33very important and yeah I'm like you
25:35Keith I read through everything over and
25:37over and over but at the end of the day
25:39yeah I kicked it to the attorney to make
25:41sure I was doing the right thing you
25:43know but I still believe that you know
25:46you know going over term sheets you can
25:48do a lot on your own but I'm like you
25:50I'm like you I'm sure carmine agrees at
25:52some point you really need to have an
25:54attorney to get involved to dalian dot
25:57the i's cross some T's for sure all
26:00right so it's all good units uh those
26:03are just some of the questions I that I
26:05had did you have anybody I have a bunch
26:07of I guess but you have anybody that
26:09actually didn't like your product within
26:11your trust and purple was there anybody
26:13that's saying don't get involved
26:15intervention stuff don't do it it seemed
26:17like you had a good solid group with you
26:20I would say that everyone that I shared
26:24shared it with was was supportive
26:26keeping in mind that I shared it with a
26:29very small group so maybe it maybe I
26:34insulated myself too much but actually I
26:37don't think so I I had some very tough
26:40and critical questions when I when I
26:43went to the inventor's assistance
26:46service at Oklahoma State University
26:47back in the beginning in fact one of the
26:51one of the mentors there asked me
26:55I changed prototypes in in the middle of
26:58that process and and he asked me why
27:02that's the new prototype over the first
27:05one and my my response was the first one
27:10looked like a toy and the second one
27:11looked like a tool so I mean he gave me
27:15something really hard to think about and
27:17and that's why I appreciated those those
27:21tough questions yeah that's good because
27:25inventors like myself the products never
27:28really ready it's always that neck right
27:30and you don't want to go to market with
27:32that version that you know you can make
27:33better but we always talked about it and
27:35I know Geoffrey does this also as we
27:37talk about the iPhone you know there's
27:38seven version they didn't sell that
27:40first version they wouldn't have made
27:41all money house 7 stuff you know what
27:44they get the most viable product out
27:46there get it on the market test the
27:48market kid this is awesome but you know
27:51as inventors all of us being here
27:53constantly make our product better
27:55writes in that's right
27:57one thing I want to just jump in a real
27:59quick and keeprite a very very important
28:02point that someone was honest with you
28:04and someone was direct and didn't
28:07sugarcoat it and and really I'm not
28:09blowing my own horn here but as a coach
28:12that's what I'm all about
28:14you know I do not sugarcoat it for
28:16students because that would not be the
28:19right way to coach and right I'd give it
28:22to them straight and tell them exactly
28:24what they need to know so they can not
28:26make that mistake again so they can move
28:28forward in with that idea or another
28:30idea so that's really good that you
28:33that's what someone has to do if
28:35someone's out there it's got someone
28:36helping them you need to have someone's
28:38going to really shoot it straight not
28:40sugarcoat it for you that's learn right
28:42and I think an inventor or product
28:44developer can can do this somewhat on
28:46their own they can look at the product
28:48and say well I would why would somebody
28:49part with their money to to buy this
28:52product and that's a be real honest with
28:55yourself about that because one of the
28:57options of course that people have is to
29:00not not buy the product so it really has
29:06to deliver a value can't be just cool it
29:10needs to deliver a value to the good
29:12market place that is exactly right and
29:15again this is almost like this is
29:17scripted but that's what I that's what I
29:19teach you know - it's so important to
29:23define the problem to find the solution
29:26and make sure that it yet your your
29:29product is going to provide that
29:30solution well enough that that there's a
29:33consumer market that's going to open up
29:34their wallets and buy that problem it's
29:36very important but I like to I like to
29:39think about the post-it notes we posted
29:43notes are in essence our scrap paper
29:46we're all drowning in scrap paper but
29:48yet we will pay a penny and a half
29:51apiece per sheet for a three by three
29:54post-it note why well because 3m now
29:59many others have created the product
30:01with value that we all we all appreciate
30:05that's a really great analogy and you're
30:08right the everyday I've got them all
30:10around me myself post notes everything
30:13good for 3m right
30:16so only wait it's been great - they keep
30:18you have been very very informative my
30:21friend and it's really nice like you
30:22have your own show and congratulations
30:24on your product you know it's really
30:27exciting to get to know you and to learn
30:30learn the processes that you went
30:32through and hopefully had a great time
30:34on show today I had a great time it's
30:36been an honor to be here and then talk
30:37to both of you okay well thank you so
30:41karma are you still there I'm still here
30:44and I want to thank you all so keep
30:45giving out information again
30:47very very valuable when yes you speak
30:50with somebody who has done it maybe what
30:52they're supposed to do of course you had
30:54some setbacks which you admitted and
30:55works with them very very very well that
30:59you did and I'm so glad I think it's
31:01great that you've got a lysine contract
31:02you're moving forward you did what you
31:04said you're going to do I think it's
31:05awesome and anybody that's listening in
31:07Vegas believe that it is possible if
31:10anyone has a product or has some
31:13question or jeffrey or for myself you
31:15can find Jeffrey at Facebook on the
31:18lifesling jungle Facebook page you can
31:20also find them on product coach
31:23I think right Jeffrey that's correct
31:25it's likely because product coach you could find me at inventors
31:29Launchpad dot-com or Facebook Linkedin
31:33again this is Carmine disco your co-host
31:36with Jeffrey mangas and we had Keith
31:38Lawrence on the show today I thank you
31:41guys all very much and we'll next time
31:43on the licensing jungle thanks a lot
31:46take care guys thank you